Baritone Experiment - thoughts/advice welcome

[atticus1019]

Where to begin... 10 years ago or so I was playing a show and someone backstage dropped one of my guitars. Neck shifted down into the body- ugly, heartbreaking mess. It was an early 2000s Martin, from their recently debuted sustainable series. Cedar top/Walnut back and sides. More importantly, it was my first "real guitar" and I loved it.

Fast forward 10 years, a friend of mine is a luthier at Scott Baxendale's shop in Athens, GA and I have started talking to him about the possibility of resurrecting at least a little bit of my first love. The Walnut back and sides of my poor broken baby are actually in good shape so my thought was we could save a little in material cost and save at least a piece of a guitar that holds a pretty good deal of sentimental value to me.

Here is where I have a few questions. And yes, I do realize I should- and I fully intend to- ask these questions of the luthier building the guitar, but isn't it fun to dream about these kinds of things together?

So. Baritone guitars. I want one. I have read elsewhere that walnut may actually be a pretty good candidate for back/side tonewood of a bari. I've also read that cedar may be a bit mushy for the topwood but thats ok becasue the top is not in what I would call "salvageable" condition. Thoughts? I loved the way the cedar/walnut sounded together on a standard acoustic, and I am interested in something more interesting than your tried and true sitka/rosewood box.

Next question. Size. I believe my old Martin was their GP body size. Would this be a large enough to reclaim the back and sides of to make a body large enough to be a baritone? I know most baritones are of the Dread to Jumbo-ish size.

Final question. Top wood. Since i hopefully have some money saved in the back and sides, I might be able to stretch the budget a bit on the top. What are some good woods to look at to help keep a baritone clean and clear? As I mentioned earlier, I am looking for a tonewood combo that will not just be interesting for interest's sake, but will sound really good.


Thanks for taking the time to read, I'm looking forward to hearing some more educated thoughts and opinions, and I am hopeful for what might come out of this.

[The Growler]

What size and body shape is this donor Martin? That could make a difference. Usually Baritones are larger body sizes.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by atticus1019

Next question. Size. I believe my old Martin was their GP body size. Would this be a large enough to reclaim the back and sides of to make a body large enough to be a baritone? I know most baritones are of the Dread to Jumbo-ish size.

Their GP body size.

From Martins site:

Grand Performance
Total Length 40 3/8"
Body Length 19 3/4"
Body Width 15 3/4"
Body Depth 4 1/2"


D
Total Length 40 1/2"
Body Length 20"
Body Width 15 5/8"
Body Depth 4 7/8"


So about 1/4” in every direction. And almost 1/2” shallower.

[colins]

Sounds like an interesting idea!

My baritone is 16 inch lower bout and 4.75 inch depth, and it thunders. Even the treble strings sound different to the equivalent strings on a standard guitar. The back and side dimensions from your GP are just a little less than the dimensions on my bari. I am wondering if you would lose a little bass response, but that might not be bad thing. There was a build thread a while back for a 7 string guitar and it got me thinking about how nice it would be to have a standard guitar sound but with an extra bass string. If you used your GP body for a bari, you might get a bari that is closer to a standard guitar in tone.

I have a walnut guitar with a spruce top and I like the clean, woody tone that it gives. Given that a bari can be a pretty powerful sound, you could do well with a tonewood that gives a clean, dry sound that helps with note clarity. So if you liked the tone that walnut gave you in the Martin you will probably appreciate the same characteristics in this new bari.

Topwood? Comes down to your playing style (light or heavy?) and what your luthier friend says about tuning the top.

Keep us posted!

Col

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by colins

Sounds like an interesting idea!

My baritone is 16 inch lower bout and 4.75 inch depth, and it thunders. Even the treble strings sound different to the equivalent strings on a standard guitar. The back and side dimensions from your GP are just a little less than the dimensions on my bari. I am wondering if you would lose a little bass response, but that might not be bad thing. There was a build thread a while back for a 7 string guitar and it got me thinking about how nice it would be to have a standard guitar sound but with an extra bass string. If you used your GP body for a bari, you might get a bari that is closer to a standard guitar in tone.

I have a walnut guitar with a spruce top and I like the clean, woody tone that it gives. Given that a bari can be a pretty powerful sound, you could do well with a tonewood that gives a clean, dry sound that helps with note clarity. So if you liked the tone that walnut gave you in the Martin you will probably appreciate the same characteristics in this new bari.

Topwood? Comes down to your playing style (light or heavy?) and what your luthier friend says about tuning the top.

Keep us posted!

Col

Thanks for the input! It’s good to hear I’m not too far off in size. I think really what I am going for is something with a nice tight bass response and like you mentioned with good clarity and note separation. Volume is definitely not as important as headroom if that makes sense? I play with a fairly wide dynamic range, but 90% of the time I play plugged in. So I’m not looking for a banjo killer as much as a well balanced tone monster that can whisper almost as well as it can scream.

[AZ Cardinal]

Great idea in salvaging your baby. I have 2 Baritones. One is dread, and the other a GA. The majority of the sound will come from the longer scale length and the bracing in the top. Absolutely do not use Cedar or Redwood. It will not be strong enough to support the added string pressure of 70 gauge strings. Plus it wont sound near as clear and strong as a nice set of Sitka. So even if your Walnut is not big enough for a dread or GA size, it will still get you a deep growling bass. In my humble opinion.

[nootis]

I am not an expert by any stretch, however, when building mine, my luthier also echoed AZ Cardinal. You will need a stiffer top.

Engelmann Spuce might work well with Walnut. In my experience, Engelmann excels at note clarity with a little bit more warmth and roundness than other spruces I've played. Or if your looking for uniqueness, perhaps a spruce with some bearclaw? For me, that would depend on what your Walnut looks like. Do you have any pictures?

Whatever you decide, I would think your luthier could make the size work. Next thing you will need to discuss is scale length. Perhaps the smaller size will dictate that?

[nootis]

Originally Posted by atticus1019

Thanks for the input! It’s good to hear I’m not too far off in size. I think really what I am going for is something with a nice tight bass response and like you mentioned with good clarity and note separation. Volume is definitely not as important as headroom if that makes sense? I play with a fairly wide dynamic range, but 90% of the time I play plugged in. So I’m not looking for a banjo killer as much as a well balanced tone monster that can whisper almost as well as it can scream.

I just re-read your description. If it's headroom along with delicate whispers you're after, perhaps Carpathian or other Euro Spruce would be the ticket? Adirondack is great too!

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by AZ Cardinal

Great idea in salvaging your baby. I have 2 Baritones. One is dread, and the other a GA. The majority of the sound will come from the longer scale length and the bracing in the top. Absolutely do not use Cedar or Redwood. It will not be strong enough to support the added string pressure of 70 gauge strings. Plus it wont sound near as clear and strong as a nice set of Sitka. So even if your Walnut is not big enough for a dread or GA size, it will still get you a deep growling bass. In my humble opinion.

Thanks! I am definitely away from softer woods on the top. I have adi on my d35 and Swiss “moon spruce” on my Larrivee parlor, both of which I really enjoy. I was thinking a 27” - 27.5” ish scale length if the top will accommodate that. Something that will keep some tension in the strings while letting me get nice and low. I am really interested in different bracing styles for baritones I know they need a good deal more support than a standard guitar.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by nootis

I am not an expert by any stretch, however, when building mine, my luthier also echoed AZ Cardinal. You will need a stiffer top.

Engelmann Spuce might work well with Walnut. In my experience, Engelmann excels at note clarity with a little bit more warmth and roundness than other spruces I've played. Or if your looking for uniqueness, perhaps a spruce with some bearclaw? For me, that would depend on what your Walnut looks like. Do you have any pictures?

Whatever you decide, I would think your luthier could make the size work. Next thing you will need to discuss is scale length. Perhaps the smaller size will dictate that?

I am interested in Engelmann, I’ve never tried it but I like the sound. I will upload some pics soon. The walnut isn’t super remarkable as far as any figuring, but it sounds nice. I do wonder what kind of scale length the body will accommodate.

[The Growler]

Originally Posted by atticus1019

Their GP body size.

From Martins site:

Grand Performance
Total Length 40 3/8"
Body Length 19 3/4"
Body Width 15 3/4"
Body Depth 4 1/2"


D
Total Length 40 1/2"
Body Length 20"
Body Width 15 5/8"
Body Depth 4 7/8"


So about 1/4” in every direction. And almost 1/2” shallower.

Missed that. Sounds like it could work. This is an interesting project and will be interesting to follow.

[colins]

Originally Posted by atticus1019

Thanks for the input! It’s good to hear I’m not too far off in size. I think really what I am going for is something with a nice tight bass response and like you mentioned with good clarity and note separation. Volume is definitely not as important as headroom if that makes sense? I play with a fairly wide dynamic range, but 90% of the time I play plugged in. So I’m not looking for a banjo killer as much as a well balanced tone monster that can whisper almost as well as it can scream.

More dimensions…my bari is 27.5 inch scale length and it is tuned B to B. The string tension is very manageable and I am using it for fingerstyle not strumming. Others might chime in about scale length and “strummability”!

And the top is Italian spruce, which can give you a very full and dynamic response at low volumes. I have also found this on several standard guitars that I own with Italian tops.

That said, Engelmann could be good too – my latest guitar has that as a top instead of Italian and I am really happy with the sound and ability to get good response with minimal driving. This Engelmann has a creamy, clean look relative to Italian but obviously other pieces may vary.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by colins

More dimensions…my bari is 27.5 inch scale length and it is tuned B to B. The string tension is very manageable and I am using it for fingerstyle not strumming. Others might chime in about scale length and “strummability”!

And the top is Italian spruce, which can give you a very full and dynamic response at low volumes. I have also found this on several standard guitars that I own with Italian tops.

That said, Engelmann could be good too – my latest guitar has that as a top instead of Italian and I am really happy with the sound and ability to get good response with minimal driving. This Engelmann has a creamy, clean look relative to Italian but obviously other pieces may vary.

I’ll have to look at Italian. In some reading I’ve done, I see adi makes a good top for baritones because of its stiffness relative to some of the other spruces. Since I am saving on back and sides I’m thinking of springing for a torrified top.

Ideally I would like standard tuning to be B to b. I’ll be interested to see what kind of scale length we can get out of a slightly smaller body. I do intend for this to be a strummer as well as a picker so string tension is a concern especially since I enjoy a variety of open tunings. I’m hoping to get together with my friend later this week to talk more specifics. I’ll post some pics of the donor guitar later today if I can.

[IndianHillMike]

I'd determine scale length before coming to any conclusions about top material. A 27" scale tuned B to B with baritone strings (16, 22, 29, 48, 60, 70) has basically the same overall tension as a regular set of mediums on a 25.4" scale. If you're going to salvage a smaller body than a typical baritone, you probably want to keep the scale length on the shorter side (in terms of baritone lengths).

Mike

Originally Posted by atticus1019

I’ll have to look at Italian. In some reading I’ve done, I see adi makes a good top for baritones because of its stiffness relative to some of the other spruces. Since I am saving on back and sides I’m thinking of springing for a torrified top.

Ideally I would like standard tuning to be B to b. I’ll be interested to see what kind of scale length we can get out of a slightly smaller body. I do intend for this to be a strummer as well as a picker so string tension is a concern especially since I enjoy a variety of open tunings. I’m hoping to get together with my friend later this week to talk more specifics. I’ll post some pics of the donor guitar later today if I can.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by IndianHillMike

I'd determine scale length before coming to any conclusions about top material. A 27" scale tuned B to B with baritone strings (16, 22, 29, 48, 60, 70) has basically the same overall tension as a regular set of mediums on a 25.4" scale. If you're going to salvage a smaller body than a typical baritone, you probably want to keep the scale length on the shorter side (in terms of baritone lengths).

Mike

Thanks Mike, that’s really valuable information. The donor guitar has a body length of 19 3/4" and a total length of 40 3/8”. What kind of scale length do you think it could sustain?