The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:18 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
So I would not be so quick to cast out the SoloAmp, based on what is essentially clever marketing. I think it is a very nice design compromise that sounds great, has more than adequate bass response without the need for a subwoofer, and is very portable. Obviously I'm a happy user of the product; I don't doubt that the others are great too, so you should probably give them all a try and draw your own conclusions.
I agree, especially with your last sentence -- that one's key.

And I hope no one thinks I'm trashing the SoloAmp, because that's not my intent at all.
__________________
Music page: www.soundclick.com/jimfay -- Videos: http://www.youtube.com/JimFayVideos
  #32  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:23 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 12,340
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Herb, you bring up some good points. Just one thing -- the Bose Compact is not a line array. The compact only has 6 speakers in the "stick", and no two of them are pointed in the same direction:



That's not to say that the Compact isn't a nice system, because it is. But if you want a Bose line array, you have to go with the L1 version I or II.
Could there be enough sound overlap in the central area between the two vertical speaker planes of The Bose L1 Compact to produce a line-array effect even though there is also a slight varying vertical orientation amongst the speakers on each side and also a no-speaker gap between speakers on each side? Even the big Bose L1 Model II uses two main planes for its line-array design with 12 speakers pointing leftish and 12 speakers pointing rightish with a no-speaker gap between speakers on the same-side vertical planes. It would seem that given a basic definition of a line-array system, the only true line-array of the Bose L1 clan would be the L1 Model I with all its small speakers close together in the same forward-facing vertical alignment. Yet, Bose claims all their L1 systems are line-array designs? I wonder what's going on with Bose? Could their line-array marketing be hype for all L1 systems except the L1 Model I?
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
  #33  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:30 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Could there be enough sound overlap in the central area between the two vertical speaker planes of The Bose L1 Compact to produce a line-array effect even though there is also a slight varying vertical orientation amongst the speakers on each side and also a no-speaker gap between speakers on each side? ... Yet Bose claims all their L1 systems are line-array design?
ST, as a new Compact owner, you might want to ask that question on the Bose forum. I'm pretty sure the answer is no. You'll find Bose's marketing or advertising literature stating that the Compact will not project as far or as well as the full sticks.

But I'm assuming that this is a question that has come up multiple times in Bose-land and has been settled with a definitive answer.
__________________
Music page: www.soundclick.com/jimfay -- Videos: http://www.youtube.com/JimFayVideos
  #34  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:38 PM
kramster kramster is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 5,971
Default

Even with the Bose Compact being the "winner" in my lil comparison thingy with various musicians including..yes ..me.... I still use the Bose T1 to EQ when playing out as the mid mids are not as strong as the bass and upper stuff. I back the bass and uppers off a bit and add just a hint of mids for keys and acoustic guitar. (A little different for each of course). EQ adjusting on all 3 is helpful for sure. The SoloAmp has the most adjustment on it already so that my move it up a notch for handiness.
__________________
YUP....
Emerald: X-20, Center hole X-10 (Maple) and X-7 (redwood), Spalted Chen Chen X 10 level 3,
CA: Early OX and Cargo
McPherson: Early Kevin Michael Proto
Some wood things by Epi, Harmony, Takamine, Good Time, PRS, Slick, Gypsy Music, keyboards, wind controllers.. etc
  #35  
Old 02-08-2010, 03:23 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,340
Default

This has turned into a "definition of a line array" thread. (So what else is new!)

It is VERY CLEAR what the INTENT of the OP is. He's NOT talking about the L1 model 1 or 2. (or is he?) He is including the SoloAmp for discussion so he obviously is including it for discussion in what "he" believes is part of the line array discussions. Or is it that since the BagAmp is the ONLY true line array then he must only be asking about the BagAmp. Right?
  #36  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:02 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 536
Default

Bob, you don't have to yell. I have a line array and I can hear you just fine.

I do see your point now, but what you're really talking about is your interpretation of his original question. You said:

"...so he obviously is including it for discussion in what "he" believes is part of the line array discussions."

Should I keep quiet so that others can assume that any long, rectangular amp is a line array? I've been trying to point out what is and what is not a line array, and what can be expected out of a line array vs. a more traditional amp or speaker. I've been doing that because the OP specifically asked about line arrays vs. small amps. Except for the one post where I stated what I like about the BA's sound, I've purposely stayed away from "this amp sounds better than that amp" type comments.

If you want to tell the OP that the SA sounds better than the Ultrasound, or that the Ultrasound sounds better than the SA, go for it.
__________________
Music page: www.soundclick.com/jimfay -- Videos: http://www.youtube.com/JimFayVideos
  #37  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:08 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 18,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
The vertical arrangement is what makes it a line array (or not). Once you have a line array, the output of the speakers couple with each other vertically, and project from the line array in a cylindrical pattern, straight out with very little vertical spread.

To achieve that, you have to hit a minimum height to width ratio of 8 to 1 with speakers mounted very near each other. Using 3" diameter speakers mounted next to each other, you'd need 8 speakers in a line (3" wide, 24" high).

I think I got those figures from Jack Campbell's previous posts. He also stated something along the lines of the 8:1 ratio being minimum, while a 24:1 ratio is ideal. Reading between the lines, I think that also means that the Bose full sticks (v.I & II) do a better job of projecting or acting like a line array than the BagAmp with it's 8:1 ratio.
No, the vertical orientation of the drivers does not alone result in a line array type of propagation. The spacing between the drivers is critical (and where the SoloAmp falls short). Jack Campbell doesn't consider an array with an aspect ratio of less than 8:1 to be a line array (the BagAmp works out to about 8.66 to 1) but he also pointed out that there is no agreement as to the ratio threshold. What should be the defining factor is propagation. If a system's horizontal and vertical dispersion are unequal, and the volume drop off is significantly better than that of a conventional speaker system then it can be called a line array.

While I have compared the SoloAmp to the Compact side by side, I didn't evaluate their volume drop off with distance. Nevertheless, I'm confident that the Compact qualifies as a line array.

Last edited by Herb Hunter; 02-08-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Typographical mistake
  #38  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:08 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2,430
Default Aloha Bob! Howzit!!!

Aloha Bob, Eh, Longtime, Brah?

I've been woosheddin' with my recording rig of late, dealing with killer sciatica, & dealing with major time constraints - why I've been MIA.

I'll respond to you here even though what I say does not fully address the OP's questions about small amps vs. line arrays. But it's in the ballpark. Apologies guys.

Bob, I'm truly sorry to hear about your recent setbacks. Perhaps this planning of a new PA system will cheer you up and help you make a swift comeback.

Arming yourself with opinions on these sites is a great idea. However, perhaps it's time for you to take a few trips into the city. Get on that Long Island railroad, get off at Penn Station, and take the 8th Avenue up one stop and walk to West 48th Street to "DA MUSIC MECCA."

They have everything in those shops. Spend a few days listening and comparing all the kinds of PA's - small amps, line arrays, small PA's, etc. Let your ears make decisions on the products that these opinions here have helped you to dial in.

I have a question, Bob. You're more of an electric guy, right? Then why all the interest in small kine gigging PA's for acoustic guitar?

Many here know how I feel about all the line arrays - including the "granddaddy" that Bose LI. They don't work for my purposes or ears.

I prefer my Dual source/SPS-1/Daedalus small PA rig because it gives me the sound, control, headroom, flexibility, lack of ear fatigue, and even inspiration to perform at my gigs.

I used a Bose L1 for almost two years, once a week in a loud setting and found it did NOT provide the coverage, penetration, feedback control and overall sound that I needed in that noisy wine bar setting.

The newest line arrays are finding favor with us now primarily because of their schleppability. I mean, listen to Kramster's samples, right? Yuk! It's because so many acoustic players - my peers - are getting too old to heft larger PA's nightly to and from gigs. Me too - they want to fuse my back right now! So, I only take one Daedalus W-803 to some smaller gigs. But usually I take both, along with my portable rack, stands, etc.. It's worth it to me for my sound & purposes.

Regarding smaller amps - or even line arrays - I feel that - FOR ME - a dual speaker source small PA is always the way to go - regardless of room size. I feel that if the owner of that loud bar I played in had bought another Bose L-1, my coverage problems would have been solved. BTW, the Bose L1 offers a great sound in quiet, concert settings. It' just harder to dial in - for me.

I think that a smaller amp is fine for small room gigs, as long as it's raised on a stand and you have a slave speaker that's connectable for dual source coverage, IMO.

Bob, if you're shopping for the future, then please do yourself a favor & check out Daedalus Speakers. There are so many great choices for PA's from Lou. Sure, a W803 is $1250, but the S-81's are only $655 each., and the very powerful S-82's are only about $750 each. I think a single S-82 would provide better sound quality and coverage in smaller venues than any of the new line arrays or small amps. You do need a preamp or mixer and a power amp for all Daeds, but so what - the sound is worth it to me. So check those out.

Guys, I know Daeds are not for everyone and that few have even heard them. Just reminding people that some Daedalus' cost less than some of the new line arrays, that's all. And they sound great by comparison to almost anything. Best I'v ever heard or used. I even use my 803's for recording.

So there Bob. I'm not trying to sway you. Just trying to pass aloing what I know, just my opinion. I hope your troubles pass soon. And let your ears make the decision down on 48th St. Eh, What town on LonggggIsland yo leeeve, brah!

alohachris
  #39  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:23 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,150
Default

Yeah, but wait'll you hear the AC-33... And I LOVE my SoloAmp...
  #40  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:37 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
No, the vertical orientation of the drivers does not alone result in a line array type of propagation. The spacing between the drivers is critical (and where the SoloAmp falls short). Jack Campbell doesn't consider an array with an aspect ratio of less than 8:1 to be a line array (the BagAmp works out to about 8.66 to 1) but he also pointed out that there is no agreement as to the ratio threshold. What should be the defining factor is propagation. If a system's horizontal and vertical dispersion are unequal, and the volume drop off is significantly better than that of a conventional speaker system then it can be called a line array.

While I have compared the SoloAmp to the Compact side by side, I didn't evaluate their volume drop off with distance. Nevertheless, I'm confident that the Compact qualifies as a line array.
I thought I said the speakers have to be closely spaced?

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. We're sort of saying the same thing. I stated that a minimum of an 8:1 ratio is required to achieve better sound propagation. In other words, that if you were to design a line array system, you'd start with a minimum ratio of 8 to 1. In theory, that would give you sound levels that fall off only half as much as traditional speakers as distance increases.

You seem to be saying that an engineer would design a system that exhibits the above type of sound propagation, and if successful, then call it a line array, no matter if the speaker configuration is rectangular and 8 (or more) to 1, or square or even round.

I'm saying the speaker configuration is the cause of the line array effect. You seem to be saying that the line array effect causes the speaker configuration.

That point's not really worth arguing. I just think one way of stating it is more correct than the other, but it's not a big deal.

But you also said: "If a system's horizontal and vertical dispersion are unequal, and the volume drop off is significantly better than that of a conventional speaker system then it can be called a line array."

I know that's not right. Did you see that new EV powered cabinet with 90 degree horizontal and 45 degree vertical dispersion? Surely you're not calling the EV powered cabinets line arrays, even though the sound propagation would be better than a 90x90 dispersion pattern?
__________________
Music page: www.soundclick.com/jimfay -- Videos: http://www.youtube.com/JimFayVideos
  #41  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:44 PM
Larry Pattis's Avatar
Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
Humanist
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Bob, you don't have to yell. I have a line array and I can hear you just fine.

I do see your point now, but what you're really talking about is your interpretation of his original question. You said:

"...so he obviously is including it for discussion in what "he" believes is part of the line array discussions."

Should I keep quiet so that others can assume that any long, rectangular amp is a line array? I've been trying to point out what is and what is not a line array, and what can be expected out of a line array vs. a more traditional amp or speaker. I've been doing that because the OP specifically asked about line arrays vs. small amps. Except for the one post where I stated what I like about the BA's sound, I've purposely stayed away from "this amp sounds better than that amp" type comments.

I tried for a while to make some categorical comments about this for some time, but the visual similarity of the SoloAmp to the other products (BagAmp and Bose gear) seems to win the day. They look the same on the outside, so most assume that they must be equivalents, or at least comparable-technology equipment.

This simply may not be the case, despite the visual similarities...but it's been a losing battle (in some ways) in trying to make this understood.

For me, there was something I wanted explained based on real-world differences (read as : problems) that I had with propagation when concert-testing the SoloAmp.

Perhaps it's worth mentioning again that I did not know why, but it was clear to my ears that with the gear behind me, the SoloAmp had to be cranked up to unacceptable stage-volume levels to reach the audience at the same levels as the Bose L1 Model II (which I still own). The SoloAmp went back as unusable for me.

An explanation came via Campbell's posts here on the AGF. While there may not be complete agreement as to what constitutes a "true" line array, it was clear that his technical comments specifically addressed my concerns (for my use) with the SA.

My experience on-stage with the BagAmp is similar to what I have experienced with my L1, which is great feasibility for the gear being placed behind me to act as an on-stage monitor, and without it being uncomfortably loud on-stage at volumes designed to reach the audience.

I believe that all of this equipment is quite well-made, and has good use for a variety of circumstances...and with different performer-preferences in mind. Understanding how the gear differs, and how it might be best utilized will make for happier customers, and better experiences during amplified events/concerts.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora
LarryPattis.com
American Guitar Masters
100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists

Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay
Classical guitars by Anders Sterner
  #42  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:02 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2,430
Default Great Post, Larry

Aloha Larry,

Ol' aloha here. Mahalo for your very well written, informative post as usual. How's everything going in ought 10?

Questions?

I know you don't play the noisy kinds of venues and crowds I have (no more now if I can help it) you too probably in the past, but what size crowd/venue would you say the BagAmp could handle well?

Have you had the chance to use it in a venue with a densely packed crowd in close proximity?

What is the ideal setting for using the BagAmp? Where has it worked best for you?

Just curious in my ignorance out here. The BA still hasn't arrived in Honolulu.

All the best Larry & Keep Pickin'

alohachris
  #43  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:13 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 18,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
I thought I said the speakers have to be closely spaced?
You did but I missed it.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. We're sort of saying the same thing. I stated that a minimum of an 8:1 ratio is required to achieve better sound propagation. In other words, that if you were to design a line array system, you'd start with a minimum ratio of 8 to 1. In theory, that would give you sound levels that fall off only half as much as traditional speakers as distance increases.
The original point of contention was your claim that the Compact is not a line array. Because, you said, the array drivers were not on the same plane (you also said the driver compliment was too low). When I pointed out that neither were the Model II drivers, your reply was that "after hanging out on the Bose forum for a while, there seems to be a wide consensus that vII is just as much a line array as vI". In other words, forum consensus determines whether a system is a line array or not. Whatever the forum consensus on the Compact, Bose is calling the Compact a line array.

Quote:
You seem to be saying that an engineer would design a system that exhibits the above type of sound propagation, and if successful, then call it a line array, no matter if the speaker configuration is rectangular and 8 (or more) to 1, or square or even round.
No, it goes without saying that a line array would have to have the drivers arranged in a line.

I'm saying the speaker configuration is the cause of the line array effect. You seem to be saying that the line array effect causes the speaker configuration.[/QUOTE] No, it goes without saying that a line array would have to have the drivers arranged in a line.

Quote:
That point's not really worth arguing. I just think one way of stating it is more correct than the other, but it's not a big deal.
And yet you go on below.

Quote:
But you also said: "If a system's horizontal and vertical dispersion are unequal, and the volume drop off is significantly better than that of a conventional speaker system then it can be called a line array."

I know that's not right. Did you see that new EV powered cabinet with 90 degree horizontal and 45 degree vertical dispersion? Surely you're not calling the EV powered cabinets line arrays, even though the sound propagation would be better than a 90x90 dispersion pattern?
The rectangular dispersion you refer to regarding an Electro-Voice speaker refers only to the horn loaded tweeter. Frequencies below the crossover point are dispersed hemispherically. In order for a speaker system to have a lower volume drop off as a function of distance, vertical and horizontal dispersion would have to be unequal.
  #44  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:30 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,340
Default

Wow!!! Chris AND Larry join the discussion the same day after not hearing from either for some time now.

I can't understand why everyone just wants to continue to repeat themselves. The very first line of this thread says it all.

"I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one"

Everyone has heard about a million times the line-array comparisons. The BA is the only true line-array stated by Jack Campbell. The SoloAmp didn't work for Larry because it was too loud right behind him. The Compact is............whatever

Hey, I tell you what. I have a question maybe somebody can actually answer here. Listen closely and I'll try to word it best I can.

What I don't have a grip on is whether they are "that much better" than, say, a 50-100w Ultrasound amp or similar product that I could pick up new or maybe used for, say, about $400-500.

Who's listened to both approaches in a real, live situation?

I liked using my Loudbox 100 for awhile, pointed at the back of my head like a cannon as my monitor, but that was a pretty deafening approach, even tho I never really cranked it *that* much. I sold it because I didn't like it's specefic tone, but I could see going that route again.

Would standing in front of a SoloAmp etc be *that much* different-- enough to justify, say, it being twice as much as an Ultrasound amp?

Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?
  #45  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:41 PM
Larry Pattis's Avatar
Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
Humanist
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
I can't understand why everyone just wants to continue to repeat themselves.
...because there continues to be misunderstandings about how the supposed "line array" gear may function, based on the visual similarities but possible functional differences.

I'm glad that you have followed the threads (and comments) well enough to know what some of us are going to say, however, if incorrect information is repeated often enough, then the facts can become rather blurry.

I like to provide clarity, when possible.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora
LarryPattis.com
American Guitar Masters
100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists

Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay
Classical guitars by Anders Sterner
Closed Thread

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=