Help me make an expensive mistake

[Wildgift]

Welcome to AGF!

You will find a lot of opinions, but only you know what hits you in the gut. Get that one.

[garra]

@ Brooklyn Bob:
Yea, probably a gigging guitar. No project's stage-ready as per the lockdown, but I'm looking at metal and/or folk gigs. Always afraid I'll steal too many high-end frequencies from the instruments that matter when I don't mean to.

@ Scotso:
It's a first purchase, so besides some experience behind the mixing desk and listening to other people I have only little knowledge of what exactly my music needs. I'm a bit all over the place, really, musically. That's part of the problem, and part of the joy

[roylor4]

Hi Garra,

The 12 fret would have been a entire different critter - likely a 322. Slothead and GC (Grand Concert) body - substantially smaller than a GA (Grand Auditorium) like a 324. Night and day in volume and feel but somewhat similar in tone profile.

[hifivic]

At 68 years old I still get "schooled" daily. The latest lesson I learned was last month when I bought a Collings OM-3 German/flamed maple b&s. It sounds REMARKABLY similar to my Santa Cruz OM German/cocobolo. NEVER even remotely thought cocobolo would sound like maple. My point is the top has far more to do with the sound than the b&s and over the years many times I've read the comments of luthiers basically professing the same. Bottom line don't fret.....(pun intended)... over the b&s!

[Jim Owen]

Hi garra,

You asked why I picked Martins again even though the first one I played was rough on my hands. That’s a good question.

After I had played for a few years, my hands were stronger, I’m sure. But I also played other Martins that were set up with lighter action. My buddy’s D 35 was hard to play for me, but not for him—he’d played for years. Additionally, I picked up a 000 18 (I didn’t know about any Martins but the Ds). I loved the tone. And its scale is shorter—and easier to bend notes. I finger pick, and the smaller body of the 000 sounds more balanced than the dreadnoughts, which seemed more suited to flatpickers.

[Bob Womack]

Okay. First, disclaimers:
1) Read my signature. It describes me.
2) I love Martins but all I own are Taylors.

Now the meat:
1. You need to decide between feel and sound, sitting alone, just you.
2. Taylors are known for an action and neck feel that pleases electric guitar players.
3. Martins are known for a mid-scooped sound that is perfect for strumming chords and flatpicking but can be thin for fingerstyle.
4. Taylors are known for single-string definition that makes fingerstyle glorious but can be only so-so for strumming chords.
5. If you are willing to invest in a good setup, the Martin can be made to play easier. They are shipped from the factory with a higher action that flatpickers prefer. Likely, you are used to lower action and easier fingering since you are an electric guitar.

And now, advice: I don't know what kind of person you are, but I am a person who, once he has a guitar, gets used to it, and loves it, tends to fall in love with its looks, whether he liked them at the start or not.

As a college student in 1977, having saved my pennies for three years, I went out to buy my first professional electric guitar. I decided on a Gibson Les Paul and wanted a gold top. It was a highly inflationary period. For three years I would see that used Les Pauls were $200, would go home and save up, and return, only to find that they were now $225. Etc. until they were over $400, three years later. Eventually I was asked to join a pretty good band and needed a good guitar. I sold my previous electric guitar and headed out to the shops to buy my LP.

I could only find one anyone near my price point, in a hard-to-describe sunburst that I hated the looks of. Hated. But I had to get a guitar, so I pleaded and wheedled and they took the money I had. I've had that guitar for forty-four years now. I rather quickly grew to love its finish which I eventually discovered was a pretty rare and unique sunburst. I love the guitar and it fits me like a glove. Wouldn't part with it.

If you are like me, you'll probably love the guitar despite the finish. That's happened to me more than once.

The Martin can be made to play better. The Taylor can be EQ'ed to sound better when strumming. Decide which one is most important when the guitar is on your lap in your bedroom.

Enjoy the choice and enjoy the one you choose.

Bob

[mawmow]

Well, I would not wait for the possible 324...
I like my 322 (Mahogany/Blackwood) as well as my 412ce.

I kind of remember Taylor stopped the 414ce : I would jump on it !

Did you try a Taylor Academy ? They blown me away !

You may be interested to know that the bolted Taylor neck is easy to reset
should a neck reset be ever needed.

Another brand less known but most probably available in Europe is Larrivee :
they are quite near Taylors.

Besides, you could like some Seagull or Simon & Patrick from Godin co.
or some Boucher that are known in Europe too.

P.S. I love Taylors, Larrivee and Godin' brands, though I also own some Gibsons and Martins too.

[Shadowfox]

Originally Posted by garra

Hej there!

TL;DR: Another newbie that can't decide between Taylor, Martin or both and is wondering whether Taylor's "Urban Ash" is more than a marketing gag.

The long version:
I've played electric guitar for some 17 years now (think folk metal, psychedelic rock, a bit of blues and jazz) and have changed country and careers to something that actually makes me a bit of money. So for the first time ever I've dared venture into the realm of acoustic (specifically: steel-string) guitars. So far I relied on Ovation rentals to get me through gigs, frankly because I saw them on the gear lists of artists I liked. Now I want to buy a proper one for myself.

"Go big or go home", I told myself. After all I'm at the point where I want to buy a guitar that'll last 20-30 years and not leave me wanting (as if..), and maybe even retains some resale value.

After what feels like hundred hours of lurking, reading up on threads, guitar types and makers I've finally come around to asking for the same piece of advice that everyone does. Not without finding a good local guitar shop (in Central Europe) and trying guitars for 7 or so hours.

It all came down to what everyone said it would come down to: I found a Taylor 414ce-R that played absolutely heavenly. Its intonation was better than most electric guitars I've played in my life. Strings were buttery-smooth (I'll admit I'm biased towards Elixir, my sweat melts regular strings within days). The lead sound was something to behold and had me craving for more. Only the looks aren't for me, it will sadly never be a guitar I'll appreciate aesthetically. Can't have it all.

Then I played a Martin 000-16 to compare. And I liked the sound even more. It somehow felt down-to-earth. Rhythm riffs flowed easy, "folk-like" chords just sounded right. But my hands were struggling; it was very obviously a different instrument than what I was used to. The lack of cutaway didn't help.

After a week of thought I figured: Why not..both? A Martin 000-15M Streetmaster is very affordable, and sound-wise the very opposite of the Taylor (the 000-16 was sold at this point). I drove out to the shop, played for another hour or so, and they made a very good bundle offer.

Only, after listening to my reasoning, there was talk of Taylor-324ce Builder's Edition. Allegedly, the marriage of warm, mid-heavy mahagony and Taylor-style playability. And looks to kill. Only it's not available; even worse, it has been on back-order for 3 months now. It will literally arrive whenever, hopefully before summer. Nobody in Europe seems to have it, certainly nobody in the small country I'm in, and borders are rather closed. Very few have demo'd it. The marketing material is, as can be expected from Taylor, very loud & proud about the repurposed "Urban Ash" used.

Now I'm stuck in a "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" situation. Do I wait for a guitar that might never come, and has very high expectations to fulfil? Do I get two guitars; one that's kinda ugly (I know..) and a guitar that is a bit painful to play, but also "cheap" enough to play rough with and use in touring?

Getting all three is out of my price range, buying used is virtually impossible (I blame Covid). I don't know about "urban" ash as material, and have no way to demo the guitar any time soon. The shop was sold-out in mahagony Taylors, except 12-fret, so I couldn't even compare a regular 324. I'm really thankful for any input you can give me in regards to either the urban ash 324 or the situation I'm in. It really is a first.

Thank you for reading all this, and stay healthy.



PS: I did try Furchs, but sadly none available here are to my specs regarding nut width and features. Also tried Gibsons, being an avid SG and Firebird player, and about five more European "name" brands. Oddly enough, it came down to those two that marketing/forums biased me to beforehand.

I have played a 324 and it was probably the best Taylor I played that day. I find Taylor's to be hit or miss because of their large production quality.

Also, don't know what you are looking for with nut size and such, but if you are waiting, could simply look at Furch's configurator and build the guitar you want for you. Looking at least on the international Furch builder, a custom Grand Auditorium starts cheaper than a 324 builders edition or 414r. Just a thought?

[Rudy4]

My advice? Wait.

Good things happen for those willing to wait a bit. Things will eventually get re-stocked and you'll be able to try first-hand to see and feel what actually excites you.

I have a 14 fret Taylor 322 that is just an exceptional instrument, but I always advise folks to personally try out guitars they are unfamiliar with.

A primary consideration is exactly what you want to accomplish with a new instrument.

It may be that since you come from an electric guitar background you might end up being better served with something like a Fender Acoustisonic Telecaster, Stratocaster, or Jazzmaster.

Your options are totally open until you commit to a purchase.

[Oldguy64]

Personally, I like the standard 324.
Keep in mind that I don’t care for the GA body specifically due to the evenness of tone. I like more bass.
I also don’t care for mahogany topped guitars. I find the tone generally to be a bit “harsh”.
And I’ve never cared for Elixirs. For me, I am not capable of getting the sound I like out of them.
Yet with all those things I don’t like, I fell in love with the tone and playability of a standard, V-braced 324ce. If my pockets weren’t so light, I’d have brought it home.

As you can see below, I have a strong preference for dreads and jumbos.
It may have been the particular 324 I picked up. But it had all the qualities of a good dread.

[leew3]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

I don't know why you seem to be limiting yourself to Taylor & Martin. I used to think a Gibson J45 would be the peak of my guitar acquisitions, but long story short, such dream got waylaid by a jumbo Guild. Never looked back.

The expected 'buy the J45 post came early in this thread!

[hermithollow]

Not all guitars are the same. Buy a guitar that you have played and liked everything about it, not one you have to order and think it may be what you want.
If you want to make an expensive mistake buy sight unseen, and while you are at it get a mail order bride.

[Cool555]

My vote is to go for the Martin 000-15M Streetmaster. If you can wait, then the Taylor 324 is the other good choice. I’m a mahogany guy.

[SecondCity]

Originally Posted by hermithollow

If you want to make an expensive mistake buy sight unseen, and while you are at it get a mail order bride.

Whoa whoa whoa. The man said “expensive” mistake, not “permanently financially crippling” mistake. What’s next—recommending a boat?

[SingingSparrow]

Originally Posted by garra

Full disclosure: I work in the event industry. And I found little sustainable about it. In fact, we actively tried to move a previous operation to be more sustainable, and it turned out to be not a very fruitful endeavour. So while I appreciate the spearheading ideas and environmental consciousness Taylor as a brand shows, I feel it does not strongly affect my personal choice of guitar.

While I completely understand, I do find that rather unfortunate. The Guilds are pretty good, if you can find one locally (the M20 and D40 are very good and beautifully sounding guitars - each in a different way). I don't think any of the Oxnard versions have a cutaway, so far, however. Breedloves are also very good, I am finding, and do have cutaways. My main attraction to them is the sustainable woods, the cutaway, and a remarkable presence of a low-end (I've only played the Concert Myrtlewood model so far) whilst maintaining singing trebles. A rather unsubstantial neck, however. Happy shopping. Cheers.