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#16
01-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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Many years ago, I bought a DigiTech Vocalizer. My main goal for using it was to be able to create decent harmonies for demos without having to record so many takes. At the time, the quality of the effect was questionable. If used judiciously, it could sound pretty good.
I must admit that I didn't end up using it very much and it gathered dust until I recently got rid of it. I never seriously considered it for live use. First off, it wasn't that easy to use. I either had to use a pedal to step from harmony to harmony, or have it pre-programmed in MIDI. I just couldn't see going there. Fast forward to a year or so ago. I listened to some videos where people were using the TC Helicon GXT. Used for a single harmony, it was very convincing. Sounded like a real backup singer to me. I was astounded at how much the technology has improved. As far as pitch correction, I could see that it probably would work well... if someone had pretty decent pitch sense to begin with. If it didn't have to correct much, I would imagine, it would be pretty hard to detect its use and it might make a decent signer sound better. I can't imagine it would ever make a bad singer sound good, or even passable. For those who say they think pitch correction sounds bad, I would propose that you may have never realized you were listening to subtle pitch correction. How would you know if you couldn't detect the effect? For those who think the harmonies sound artificial, I would propose that you either haven't heard the latest technology or you haven't heard someone use it well. Personally, I think it's cool technology. I'd love to be able to get effective harmonies for home recordings just to save some work. And I would really love to be able to get convincing female vocals an octave higher than I can sing. This would be invaluable for putting together demo recordings of some of my choir arrangements/compositions. I can't see using this technology live. I don't have any problems with other people using it, it's just not for me. 
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#17
01-30-2013, 01:22 PM
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I would never use pitch correction on myself (I'm lucky enough not to need it), and I like singing harmonies that move in free counterpoint to each other too much to be satisfied with a machine that simply doubled or tripled my lead line in 3rds or 5ths or whatever. That's not the sort of thing I like to do in my band's vocal arrangments, and for what we do we need live singers. But as I've said, I've heard these machines used very effectively by solo performers.
Here's an example from a guy I know on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-jFG...layer_embedded Note also the use of a looper to allow him to solo. Not the stuff I do, but I don't see a thing wrong with this performace. In fact, I find it moving and engaging. I don't think he's using any pitch correction (I don't think he needs it any more than I do). But if it's on lightly, I can't tell. The video that Larry posted is very funny, but part of what's funny about it is that we all know that no pedal or studio trickery could ever make the vocal we finally hear revealed sound like the one we hear first. The technology just doesn't work that way and can't do that. The only thing it might be able to do with a bad vocal like that is process it heavily for some effect in a dense mix of some kind. I don't listen to modern pop for natural sounding vocals, but that doesn't make it bad music, just music about something other than natural-sounding vocals. Why all the moral panic about these things? Louis Last edited by lschwart; 01-30-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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#18
01-30-2013, 01:42 PM
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Some people miss the point. Or should I say, miss the point of what a tool may mean to others.
For the solo artist, or even a singer in a band where no-one else sings, a nice harmonizer (I'm not talking about pitch correction now) can sound good and add another dimension to the vocals. Listen, half the audience probably wouldn't know if you were singing slightly out of tune even, let alone be bothered or concerned that you're using a musical tool. Those who don't like digital effects/tools that can greatly enhance a performance, fine, do it your way, but don't knock those who choose to use them. In any case, the user of the tools is just as likely to be an excellent musician/singer anyway, they've just made the decision that for the sake of a 'bigger', more interesting, engaging sound, there is a way to do it. Not everyone has the budget for the obligatory three backing singers you know! For the record, I don't use a harmonizer currently, but I think they're clever devices used with subtlety and intelligence.
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Experienced guitar tech and singer/guitarist based in the midlands, England. McIlroy AJ50 Yamaha CPX-1200 Yamaha CPX-700/12 Yamaha LS16 Yamaha FG-300 Yamaha FG-580 Vox V2000-DR + electric guitars..
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#19
01-30-2013, 02:11 PM
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 Otherwise...If used correctly I can see how these effects can help a solo player add a little extra to his / her performance. No big deal.
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#20
01-30-2013, 02:34 PM
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#21
01-30-2013, 05:48 PM
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 Yeah, that's a joke - see the smiley? I'm a kidder... it's what I do. I have played out on the dock for friends - just me singing and playing guitar. Yep, that's acoustic. I've played for crowds, and just a guitar and a voice isn't gonna cut it - you need some amplification. You also need a way to mix the sound so the guitar and vocal has a good balance. You might call that technology, I call it the right tool for the job. Ever used a digital tuner? Oh, what is this voodoo in a box??? Tech or tool? Ever played in an acoustically "dead" room and added a bit of reverb? Tech or tool? Yeah, I could go on all night.  Since I haven't been around quite a million years, some might consider me a "newbie", having only been playing 47 or 48 years. I don't consider myself as one who jumps on the latest thing... hell, most of the music I play is 30+ years old! Back in the day, I had long curly hair (wish I still had some of that ),a Marshall stack (that went to 11), and a fringed leather jacket. I wasn't so sure I needed those new-fangled gizmos like a wah-wah pedal or a fuzz-buster. I still have (and occasionally play) the ES-335 that I bought brand new in 1965. Even though I continued to play, I think there might have been periods of a decade or so where "upgrading" meant I put new strings on. I have been playing long enough that I have actually worn out guitar straps! That said, this TC Helicon Gxt and an EQ pedal are the only pedals I've spent my own money on.I'm guessing you're getting my drift by now. We ALL use technology. Whoever made your guitar used a (gasp!) power tool in the making - didn't carve it out with a stone. Did you make that post above with a telegraph?? You may still be making music the way they did a million years ago... but using some of this technology stuff (whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist), I found out that mankind has been on this Earth about 200,000 years, give or take. **** - I LOVE technology!!! Sorry, I digress. My wife just texted me and told me to knock that off. Stop it!! I'm cracking myself up!!!I use the right tool to do what I want, whether it is making music, taking photos, or navigating (I gave up a sextant a long time ago). People can do a hack job on the guitar or they can make it sing like an angel... just depends on how you use it. In that vein, I really like the vocal harmonizer I use; doesn't sound fake at all... and I think I'm kinda fussy about that stuff. If someone puts "a tool" to good use, I admire their ability to use that. There is a learning curve with any tool or instrument. I don't think you're an elitist, but an open and inquisitive mind can lead to all kinds of improvements. I'm not a big one on doing things a certain way, "just because that's the way it has always been done." OK, one last little jab: "lp"?? I said something about additional tracks on a recording... I just have a heckuva time trying to shove those lps into my iPad! (Just having a little fun at your expense.)Best wishes, Captain Jim (Who learned a long time ago to not judge a product based on another person's poor use of it.) On edit: those "****" weren't from me... I am an old boat captain, I know how to swear!
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#22
01-30-2013, 05:58 PM
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What ticks me off is when someone judges a musician who uses effects such as a looper or harmony pedal as talentless or somehow covering up their failings. I've heard these tools used badly or without restraint and they can sound like garbage. However, used carefully and with taste it can add dramatically to the variety and dynamics of a performance.
I'll give an example: Years ago I played Seven Bridges Road with an acoustic trio and it never failed to bring the house down. When I first started using the TC Helicon Harmony G-XT, I tried the song on my own with a 3rd and 5th harmony dialed in. With practice I could make it sound pretty convincing, although it was much harder to make it sound good than simply singing my one harmony when I was with other singers. You have to make sure that what you're playing is leading the pedal to create the harmony correctly and then you have to sing your part flawlessly as the pedal will only multiply your errors. I don't tend to play this song live as I find it stretches the bounds of good taste to do that much 3-part harmony as a solo singer. Still if someone requests that song I might be convinced to do it. Most of the time, I find adding harmony to the second or third chorus or to a line or two in a verse will add a bit of energy or momentum to a song. If you stomp the pedal at the start of a song and let it ride throughout, it will sound terrible - just like any effect would if used indiscriminately (ie: Jimi with his fuzzface and octaver vs. a newbie with his first Heavy Metal pedal). If the singer has no tone or can't carry a melody well the pedal will only amplify this. It's a tool that can be used tastefully and creatively. By the way, I play most of my stuff without any help from a looper or the G-XT. They are extras that just add a little. I have no trouble doing 4-5 hours around a campfire without any amplification or effects, but if given the choice I like to add a bit of variety to my sound. To each his/her own, just try to refrain from slamming those of us who like using this gear. Mike
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#23
01-30-2013, 08:59 PM
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I didn't start playing guitar until I was in my late 40's so I'm one of those no talent musicians that can't sing but I'm doing it any way and I have pity on the ears that my vocals happen to enter. This last Saturday I had the chance to use one of the voice harmonizers and from my place behind the mic I couldn't tell the difference. I didn't know at the time that it would harmonize my voice with the chords I was playing, I thought it was just a vocal effects peddle. After talking with the units owner I was told of some of it's short comings. It has trouble differentiating some chords, it depends on how you play them, the unit will sometimes think a major is a minor and some songs have chords that help to add to the confusion, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes is one of the songs.
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#24
01-31-2013, 07:10 AM
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This thread is funny. Is there someone out there that doesn't believe that professional recordings of major singers are not "massaged" to correct faults in their performance? Training to sing on pitch is great, but I'm sure no one is perfect, even professionals; They may just think they are. If you don't like harmonizers...don't use them.
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#25
01-31-2013, 12:16 PM
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Im not slamming other for using this thing. The times I have heard it used it sounds horrible. Maybe some can use it well. Part of the thing is the shop clerk misinformed me about it I think. I was just horrified some one who is tone deaf could just plug this thing in and presto they sound in pitch. The harmony thing could be fun I see that, I just haven't heard it done well. The other thing I just realized you could use it for practicing. I jump on others keys sometimes and I would be useful for keeping in your key, maybe? If I ever have some money a looper is #1 along with a Fishman Aura (see I like technology). Maybe I might consider one if they drop in price. Oh and in the movie 2001 you can diffidently see one of the apes playing a Martin in back of the monolith
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#26
01-31-2013, 12:20 PM
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Laughingboy68 summed it up pretty well. If the resource is there why not use it? A guitarist I played with back in the '60's used an EchoPlex and a Leslie cabinet. I don't remember the model of Leslie but it was the size of a midsized automobile or seemed like it at 2 AM when we tore down. Today, two foot pedals do the same thing and might weigh a total of 2 lbs. Do any of you old timers remember the AKG plate reverbs? They were a joy to use. (That's sarcasm by the way) We carried a half dozen diaphragms for the horns and extra speakers to replace the ones that popped if the plate got bumped when the "system" was hot. Anybody remember the Shure vocalmaster? State of the art in the late 60's. First real band I was in had 3 of them. The term feedback was synonymous with Shure Vocalmaster. The "Good Old Days"??? Yeah. Right.
But we learned a lot of stuff that the younger guys have missed having to learn. Anybody remember getting snapped by a mic to the point your lip blistered? Or have an old tube power amp 'cook off'? Or ground lifts, parametric EQ's that weren't synced, a stage with one 15 amp outlet, replacing preamp tubes because of power fluctuations or low voltage that popped transformers? Long throw horns that were 6' long, weighed more than a small cow and had to be placed on top of a 10' high stack of speaker cabs? Spending an hour getting the buzz out of the system only to get it all back in the middle of the 1st set when somebody in the kitchen turned on a fluorescent light. Or having the local AM radio station come blasting through the system with the 10 o'clock news. Playing without monitors or not even having them? A couple years ago my wife and I attended a concert at a local casino. Big name Nashville act. The band played about 30 minutes and lost their monitor system. Sparks and arcs. Still had the mains but could not finish their show. Sounded awful. Ironic. I felt bad for them. A bunch of kids for the most part. And really, really good players. Tech dependent. The list goes on and on and on. But we learned some important stuff, too. Like listening to each other, balance, cabinet placement, tuning and dampening a stage with backdrops, blankets and banners, controlling stage volume, dealing with feedback with mic placement not by squelching frequencies, tuning 'by ear'. Speaker proximity. Speaker placement. Tones and knowing how to get them. Drum 'cages'. Although, I think all drummers should be placed in cages. A little personal bias. Again, the list goes on and on and on. I recently bought an Aguilar 751 bass amp. The primary reason I spent as much on it as my first 3 cars collectively is that I can make it sound like an old Black Face Fender 50 wt Bassman. Turn a couple knobs and it sounds like a Blackline SVT. A couple more knobs turned produces a very believable upright bass tone. And it is LOUD. Finally, I can shut up any drummer or sonically remove him from the stage. That, in and of itself, is worth every penny spent on this monster. Absolutely wonderful piece of technology. My life has been blessed. I've played with some true greats through the years. Did a workshop with a fellow back in the late 60's named Joe Morello. He bought me lunch. I was his seeing-eye-bass player for a day. Played and recorded with some fellows that are household names. Or used to be. Spent a couple years bouncing around Nashville and didn't starve. Spent a year in a houseband at the MGM Grand. The original that went up in smoke. These days I still play in our local symphony, a jazz trio and a "Classic Rock" (Although I hate that phrase) show band. I guess you can call me a "has been". Better than a "never was" I suppose. I've always felt that the older players have a debt. Making music is no different than practicing medicine or engineering or any other in-depth science or art. We are obliged to pass on what we've learned. Sometimes it is tough. There is a lot of arrogance in this business/craft/hobby/obsession. You younger players have it a lot easier. You also have it a LOT tougher. Easier because of the ready access to teaching and learning aids. Tougher because of the sheer volume of stuff you need to learn. The gear is so much better, today. In the "Good Old Days" a band I was in had a state of the art sound system. It took three 1 ton vans pulling 16' trailers to lug it around. Today, one 16' trailer will haul a system that is 20 x's more versatile, sounds 20 x's better, has 20 x's the power and can be set up and torn down in 20 minutes. Some of the old stuff is great. Still, after nearly 50 years and dozens of basses my favorite bass is a 1964 Fender Jazz Bass. And that includes a stable of over a dozen basses worth more than I care for my wife to know. Old and new. Still, nothing sounds like a '59 LP or an old Country Gent or an old Dove, Humminbird or Martin. A black face Twin. An old Marshall stack. Old Fender basses. Hofner basses. Old Rickies. Vox amps. Old Strats. Vintage stuff is cool. There is just as much cool stuff made today. Probably more. Some of the old stuff was really bad. Farfisa keyboards. Kustom bass amps. They were sure pretty, though. Echo Plexes. God, I hated those things. Monophonic synthesizers. Palm levers. Pitch benders. Moogs. Lots of faddish crap that was not worth remembering. Does anybody remember when the keyboard player had a half dozen patch cords around his neck and what looked like an old hotel telephone switchboard next to his B-3? Good old days? Yeah. Right. Also, the money. That has gotten worse. A lot. In 1975 a band I was in made $600 per week per member, rec'd. rooms for each member and meal vouchers for 3 squares a day. That's really good compensation by today's standards. But we played. A lot. 2 ninety minutes shows 6 days per week. 3 ninety minute rehearsals 4 days per week. For 50 weeks in a row. We got really, really good. Also burned out completely. I did not have a bass in my hands for 3 years after that band ceased to exist. This has turned into a dissertation. What I'm trying to say is this: If the tech is there, use it. But not at the expense of the integrity of the art. Respect the art. And don't forget what has passed. There is a phenomenon know as generational attrition. Basically that means that if a thing, idea, technique or skill is not recorded in some fashion, by the 4th generation it has been perverted or completely lost. Forever. That is the debt a musician owes. Pass It On. My 2 cents.
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#28
01-31-2013, 01:28 PM
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Great post RosesDad, thanks for sharing your memories.
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#29
02-01-2013, 10:23 AM
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SM
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#30
02-01-2013, 10:39 AM
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"Dreams are the answers to questions that we haven't figured out how to ask." - Mulder
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