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  #31  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:34 AM
redir redir is offline
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Of all the sets mentioned that I have in stock as far as tap is concerned the Wenge is the most impressive to me. It sounds like you are tapping on glass and it rings like a bell. The BRW does the same. Having said that though, I don't really know how that translates to a finished guitar. I've made quite a few guitars out of White Oak too and the back sets don't really tap all that well but makes a great guitar none the less.
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  #32  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:41 PM
stringjunky2 stringjunky2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
Of all the sets mentioned that I have in stock as far as tap is concerned the Wenge is the most impressive to me. It sounds like you are tapping on glass and it rings like a bell. The BRW does the same. Having said that though, I don't really know how that translates to a finished guitar. I've made quite a few guitars out of White Oak too and the back sets don't really tap all that well but makes a great guitar none the less.
This is the thing, once you attach the top to braces and the body it's a different situation and it becomes just one part of several,
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  #33  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:08 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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I found that also with the Black Locust I am building. I got the wood just to get the feel of a ringy wood. Once the braces were on it it settled down some. For example, tapping the back of the BL and a Walnut back the BL does ring a little longer but not enough for you to say 'wow'. Part of what happens is the top and the back couples together and it does not matter if the top or the back is the one that was excited. In my mind a back will ring more with a top that is braced more free to resonate and a top resonate more with a back that is freer.
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  #34  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:01 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Hope this is of some help to the OP.
Sometimes numbers can be of use. It was for me when I was deciding on a Wood choice, that I could not audition, for my next guitar(like yourself).
Numbers are only numbers and not the ultimate tell all. I was fortunately enough to be able to listen via audio samples to confirm what the numbers indicated.
The most important number indicator for myself was the Specific Gravity, Janka Hardness and Weight.
Here is a little chart: Sorry for the unevenness in spacing. This format changes the spacing.
-------------SG --------Janka-----MOR--------MOE--------Crush Str-----wt.
Brazilian .68-.85-----2,790-----19,570-----2,020,000----9,790--------52lbs
Osage O. .76-.86-----2,620-----18,650----1,689,000-----9,380--------54
Wenge .72-.87-----1,930-----21,990----2,550,000-----11,710------54
E Indian .70-.85-----2,4440----16,590----1,668,000------8,660------52

Janka hardness= how well a wood will withstand dents, dings, based on its Hardness

Modulus of Rupture, sometimes referred to as bending strength), is a measure of a specimenís
strength before rupture.

Modulus of Elasticity,*measures a woodís stiffness, and is a good overall indicator of its strength.
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  #35  
Old 01-16-2019, 06:29 AM
ruby50 ruby50 is offline
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I have limited experience but am amazed at the tap of Osage Orange. It sounds like a piece of of steel. It is that bright yellow when fresh, but inside of a year it is toned down to a lovely honey color. I have built 2 in this wood and had no trouble finding good stuff. Here is a 13" guitar freshly sanded and finished, with a mahogany neck:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

And less than a year later:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

And here is the biggest Osage Orange tree I have seen - I am 6'2" and I figure it is well over 100 feet tall:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

Click left and right. Sure wish I could figure out how to post pictures on this site.

Ed
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  #36  
Old 01-16-2019, 07:26 AM
redir redir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruby50 View Post
I have limited experience but am amazed at the tap of Osage Orange. It sounds like a piece of of steel. It is that bright yellow when fresh, but inside of a year it is toned down to a lovely honey color. I have built 2 in this wood and had no trouble finding good stuff. Here is a 13" guitar freshly sanded and finished, with a mahogany neck:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

And less than a year later:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

And here is the biggest Osage Orange tree I have seen - I am 6'2" and I figure it is well over 100 feet tall:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby16...7641029319394/

Click left and right. Sure wish I could figure out how to post pictures on this site.

Ed
Wow those before and after pics really show a difference.

There's some big OO tree's here in Virginia and I have a local tree worker on the look out for me, among other woods.
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  #37  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:01 AM
psychojohn psychojohn is offline
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Default On Oak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
Of all the sets mentioned that I have in stock as far as tap is concerned the Wenge is the most impressive to me. It sounds like you are tapping on glass and it rings like a bell. The BRW does the same. Having said that though, I don't really know how that translates to a finished guitar. I've made quite a few guitars out of White Oak too and the back sets don't really tap all that well but makes a great guitar none the less.
I too own an Oak back and sides guitar. Great projection and sweet sound, but the shimmery qualities remain at a minimum making it a good recording guitar for lack of overtones.

Re current project: (right now at least) leaning toward hormigo/granadillo over Wenge & Osage as it would appear to have better sustain and shimmer than the Wenge and Osage, but haven't made any decisions in rock so far.
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Last edited by psychojohn; 01-16-2019 at 08:08 AM.
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  #38  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:20 AM
zoopeda zoopeda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Hope this is of some help to the OP.
Sometimes numbers can be of use. It was for me when I was deciding on a Wood choice, that I could not audition, for my next guitar(like yourself).
Numbers are only numbers and not the ultimate tell all. I was fortunately enough to be able to listen via audio samples to confirm what the numbers indicated.
The most important number indicator for myself was the Specific Gravity, Janka Hardness and Weight.
Here is a little chart: Sorry for the unevenness in spacing. This format changes the spacing.
-------------SG --------Janka-----MOR--------MOE--------Crush Str-----wt.
Brazilian .68-.85-----2,790-----19,570-----2,020,000----9,790--------52lbs
Osage O. .76-.86-----2,620-----18,650----1,689,000-----9,380--------54
Wenge .72-.87-----1,930-----21,990----2,550,000-----11,710------54
E Indian .70-.85-----2,4440----16,590----1,668,000------8,660------52

Janka hardness= how well a wood will withstand dents, dings, based on its Hardness

Modulus of Rupture, sometimes referred to as bending strength), is a measure of a specimen’s
strength before rupture.

Modulus of Elasticity,*measures a wood’s stiffness, and is a good overall indicator of its strength.
The only rosewood I’ve heard with richness of overtone content comparable to Brazilian (including Madagascar and Granadillo) is Indian Rosewood. Looking at the above chart, on paper it’s the most similar. Talking to Wes at PreWar guitar co, he believes the “bad rap” of muddy Indian rosewood tone to be due to the way it’s been built. Remember, the switch to Indian rosewood happened AFTER the move away from the lightly built pre war engineering to the more modern, heavy build techniques. After talking to Wes, I’m starting to think an Adirondack and Indian rosewood guitar built lightly to true pre war Martin style specs would get closer than anything we are hearing out of most modern builders—including the Martin Authentics built with Madagascar rosewood.

I’m sure there will be the tendency to flame this comment, but don’t do so unless you’ve actually played or owned an Indian rosewood and Adirondack guitar built to true pre war Martin specs (ie something like a PreWar Co guitar...NOT a Martin GE or Marquis...).
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  #39  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:56 AM
Dwight Dwight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoopeda View Post
Iím sure there will be the tendency to flame this comment, but donít do so unless youíve actually played or owned an Indian rosewood and Adirondack guitar built to true pre war Martin specs (ie something like a PreWar Co guitar...NOT a Martin GE or Marquis...).
...Like my H&D TOM!

OP: There is no substitute for Brazilian, It has a history, a story and a look.
....Not to mention everyone hears just a little bit with their eyes.
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  #40  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:08 AM
psychojohn psychojohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
...Like my H&D TOM!

OP: There is no substitute for Brazilian, It has a history, a story and a look.
....Not to mention everyone hears just a little bit with their eyes.
While there are US builders using it, both with and without CITIES paperwork, I'm pretty much done with 4-6K builds which a good set of CITIES BRW would push most builds into. Thus the hunt for a substitute, but FWIW, I made the same comment to my builder ... there really is no true replacement if BRW tone is what you are looking for. The look ... I actually prefer more figured and less dark brown color tones, but am going for tone on this one, not visual aesthetics. So irrespective of the wood, if straight, tight grain gets more tone over figured, it will be the straight tight grain chosen. Thanks to all for all the very helpful responses.

John
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  #41  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:12 AM
paulzoom paulzoom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
.

...Not to mention everyone hears just a little bit with their eyes.
I can't see the back of my guitar when I play it.
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  #42  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:18 AM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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IMO wood properties set a sort of upper limit to what the guitar may be able to do. Sadly, it's all too easy to make a bad guitar out of fine wood. OTOH, a good maker can make a very nice instrument out of wood that it less stellar.

I will say that I'm liking oak more and more the more I use it. All of the oak guitars I've made have drawn compliments for sound. It's too bad that people still think you can't make a good guitar out of it.

At any rate, if I were looking for the closest thing to the sound of BRW without the CITES/Lacey issues I'd go for Osage.
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  #43  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:07 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
if straight, tight grain gets more tone over figured
That hasn't been my experience. Choose straight grain for stability. Choose tone by choosing the luthier.
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  #44  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:13 PM
psychojohn psychojohn is offline
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Default Very Interesting comment on straight grain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
That hasn't been my experience. Choose straight grain for stability. Choose tone by choosing the luthier.
Very Interesting Sir ! So, call it urban legend or conventional wisdom or old wives tales, but I have consistently heard that when it comes to BRW, you want the tight, straight grained rather than figured as the former will produce the best tone. You seems to be suggesting otherwise. I understand the luthier component to tone you mentioned, but thought straight, tight grain producing the best tone in BRW was one of the few "etched in stone" rules in Lutherie.

Thanks

John
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  #45  
Old 01-16-2019, 05:31 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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I have played too many guitars with slab cut or other less than straight-grained Brazilian RW that sounded stellar. And checking tap tones of wood sets blindfolded has taught me that there is little or no correlation between these aspects and the actual sound produced.
You also mention tight grain, like it makes a consistent difference. I have not found that to be an 'etched in stone' rule, either.
I am not saying that straight grain is not preferred, both by Martin and many enlightened luthiers (me included). But like I said before, that is because it is both easier to build with and is less likely to warp and crack, particularly if treated badly. That does not automatically translate to better sound, however.
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