Advice on James May UltraTonic upgrade for K&K

[aschroeder]

I have a K&K mini in my Applegate SJ. It was already installed when I bought the guitar. The K&K is incredibly boomy on the low end, to the point I can barely EQ it to a usable level. I use a Boss GE-7 as a preamp to dial out the low end and then add an IR with another pedal. It sounds great when I play fingerstyle through my Bose L1 Compact. But when I strum it gets boomy even when EQ'd.

I'm considering ordering the James May UtraTonic upgrade for the K&K. I've read positive reviews on the forum, but would appreciate any comments from those who have installed it on their guitar(s).

My biggest concern is I really don't want to glue more sensors to my bridge plate. The benefit of the K&K is the minimal invasiveness to your guitar. I don't want the additional sensors to affect my unplugged tone.

I have the Schatten HFN in two other guitars and have had good luck with it. So another option would be to remove the K&K and install the Schatten pickup (or possibly the original UltraTonic pickup). I like the sound of the K&K on this guitar, but it is a bit of a beast to tame the low frequencies.

[TheJackal]

I've installed the upgrade in three guitars and the full system in another. Other than the ease of installation, I find no difference in the sound. This takes the K&K to another level. The upgrade does require some soldering. The full system doesn't. If you're ok with that, it's pretty easy to do.

Hope this helps.

[aschroeder]

Originally Posted by TheJackal

I've installed the upgrade in three guitars and the full system in another. Other than the ease of installation, I find no difference in the sound. This takes the K&K to another level. The upgrade does require some soldering. The full system doesn't. If you're ok with that, it's pretty easy to do.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your feedback. With the upgrade version installed in three different guitars you've had the opportunity to thoroughly test it out. I've installed many pickup systems over the years and have plenty of experience soldering, so that's not a problem. It's just a lot of stuff mounted to the bridge plate. I just wasn't sure if was a good idea or worth the price tag costing more than the original K&K pickup.

[RogerPease]

Another reference point: The update is totally worth it.

I had a problem with a K&K in my Martin CEO7 that sounds like what you describe. Boomy, just barely EQ-able. The Ultra Tonic update brought it to where only touches of EQ are needed and it easily could go without any EQ if needed.

The Ultra Tonic will make a huge difference in reducing sensitivity to feedback, too.

As TheJackal correctly notes you have to be ok with soldering those 3 tiny coax wires from the K&K sensors, but it’s not *that* hard. And you have to do the dip switch setting process, but only once. Or you can always have the the installation done professionally.

Personally, I don’t think adding the extra sensors to the bridge plate is anything to worry about.

If you want to rip the K&K off consider the newer Ultra Tonic 3.1 pickup with the strip sensor.

The update worked beautifully for me and I’m very happy. Cheers and good luck. _Roger

[tadol]

I’ve upgraded a couple of K&Ks, and installed from scratch as well, and can’t hear any difference, so if the K&K is well installed, just do the upgrade. It’s well worth it.

[ljguitar]

Hi folks…

I'm approaching the issue from a different point of view.

My premise is audiences want to hear music, and they are not evaluating the accuracy of the guitars being played through PA systems or amps.

I have K&K Pure mini in ALL my acoustics, and have not been tempted to upgrade them other than adding the internal mic (all but one of my guitars also have a K&K internal mic).

An aside…
If I REALLY wanted to improve the acoustic tone, I'd get an Ear Trumpet mic and find a way to make it work live.

I use a ToneDexter as my main preamp these days, but even with my dual source preamps and the K&K plus internal mic in 4 guitars I use live, either direction (dual source with great preamp or ToneDexter) produces a great 'live' sound through decent PA systems (or amps). In fact, a K&K with a decent preamp is going to improve the sound of guitars.

Since I'm using the ToneDexter which allegedly uses the K&K (pickup) as the 'sampled' tone and then fills in the blanks with the WaveMaps which I pull(ed) with studio mics.

And the ToneDexter users can adjust their tone even further with the better than average on-board controls.

I'm not trying to duplicate my 'living room' or 'studio' sound in an auditorium, but having a great sounding acoustic underpinning to the music I'm playing and singing. The focus is on the music, and not the (quote) accuracy (unquote) of said tone, but the music I'm sharing!

I have not heard any better acoustic reproduction of my instruments than a simple K&K Pure mini and ToneDexter with my guitars, though the straight Dual Source through either my DTAR Solstice or my Raven PMB II preamps is very close to the sound I get with the ToneDexter.

I see no advantage to improving the tone of the K&K by adding an additional pickup, since I'm already blending/altering it in post to correct for 'defects' or 'less-than-spectacular' characteristics.

When I play in mixed guitar events, mine is usually the best sounding acoustic guitar through the PA. Why spend more money and time to try to improve something that only I notice? (Audiences want to hear music not evaluate guitars).

[Petty1818]

Just to add what Ljguitar just posted, there are also simple options to improve the K&K if you really need to vs. adding more stuff to the guitar. Have feedback? Try a simple soundhole feedback cover. Or, get a Voiceprint and make use of the anti-feedback settings. Better yet, use the Voiceprint to add high end to the K&K pickup. Nothing against the Ultratonic, but it seems like a lot of stuff and a lot of tweaking when really, you can make simple upgrades to the K&K.

[aschroeder]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi folks…

I'm approaching the issue from a different point of view.

My premise is audiences want to hear music, and they are not evaluating the accuracy of the guitars being played through PA systems or amps.

I have K&K Pure mini in ALL my acoustics, and have not been tempted to upgrade them other than adding the internal mic (all but one of my guitars also have a K&K internal mic).

An aside…
If I REALLY wanted to improve the acoustic tone, I'd get an Ear Trumpet mic and find a way to make it work live.

I use a ToneDexter as my main preamp these days, but even with my dual source preamps and the K&K plus internal mic in 4 guitars I use live, either direction (dual source with great preamp or ToneDexter) produces a great 'live' sound through decent PA systems (or amps). In fact, a K&K with a decent preamp is going to improve the sound of guitars.

Since I'm using the ToneDexter which allegedly uses the K&K (pickup) as the 'sampled' tone and then fills in the blanks with the WaveMaps which I pull(ed) with studio mics.

And the ToneDexter users can adjust their tone even further with the better than average on-board controls.

I'm not trying to duplicate my 'living room' or 'studio' sound in an auditorium, but having a great sounding acoustic underpinning to the music I'm playing and singing. The focus is on the music, and not the (quote) accuracy (unquote) of said tone, but the music I'm sharing!

I have not heard any better acoustic reproduction of my instruments than a simple K&K Pure mini and ToneDexter with my guitars, though the straight Dual Source through either my DTAR Solstice or my Raven PMB II preamps is very close to the sound I get with the ToneDexter.

I see no advantage to improving the tone of the K&K by adding an additional pickup, since I'm already blending/altering it in post to correct for 'defects' or 'less-than-spectacular' characteristics.

When I play in mixed guitar events, mine is usually the best sounding acoustic guitar through the PA. Why spend more money and time to try to improve something that only I notice? (Audiences want to hear music not evaluate guitars).

I completely understand your point of view. I played at a friend's wedding many years ago and my B string broke during the song. The guitar was so out of tune it sounded like I was playing a tin can guitar with rubber band strings. I was really embarrassed since it was a solo acoustic song. After the wedding I talked to 15 different people and the only person that noticed is a guy that is also a musician. In the long run this really helped me to not focus too much on small details and mistakes during a performance.

With that said, my issue with the K&K isn't about making it sound perfect. Even with it heavily EQ'd it causes some distortion or feedback when I strum. The low end frequencies are extremely boomy. This is my first guitar with a K&K pickup so I don't have anything to compare it to. I didn't install the K&K, so I plan to inspect it when I change strings to make sure it is installed correctly and not coming loose. I've had the guitar for just over a month but it is a 2022 model, so the pickup was installed very recently.

I run the K&K through the Boss GE-7 preamp to EQ the sound and then through my Optima Air to add an IR (Tonedexters haven't been available for months now). It sounds amazing when I fingerpick, but it causes me problems at louder volumes when I strum.

[fwphoto]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I have K&K Pure mini in ALL my acoustics, and have not been tempted to upgrade them other than adding the internal mic (all but one of my guitars also have a K&K internal mic).

I would consider adding a mic to the K&K a significant upgrade that would definitely improve it's output. I've never used that combination (K&K + mic) but imagine that effectively blending the mic & K&K signals, and then running the signal through a ToneDexter would significantly improve the sound quality & probably bring the boomy-ness & feedback under control. That said, just adding the Ultra Tonic accomplishes that, too.

Bottom line, you're adding the mic & processing through the ToneDexter & the Ultra Tonic adds an additional sensor & a chip on the jack that effectively controls feedback. I suspect each approach ends up sounding different from the other, but I can assure you that the Ultra Tonic converted K&K sounds way better than just the K&K & has totally eliminated the boom & feedback associated with just the K&K.

The K&K worked fine for me until I started playing in a loud environment. I played a K&K equipped D-18 & also a K&K'd OM-21 & both had significant feedback issues. Even with lots of EQ I still needed feedback busters in their sound holes to eliminated the feedback. The Ultra Tonic conversion not only made the K&Ks sound better, it totally eliminated the feedback. IMO, it provided a much simpler solution than adding a mic & running through a ToneDexter or other sophisticated (read: expensive :-) electronics.

Of course, IMO, YMMV, my .02, etc.

Frank

[tadol]

It’s interesting to read about all the approaches to the same problem - honestly, I’m looking for the simplest, and least (potentially) problematic solution that I can have. Just walk in, grab a cable, and plug it into - whatever. Amp, powered speaker, PA, mixer, ?? I know I’m gonna get a clean, accurate, good sounding, balanced signal out of my guitar. No worries about batteries, no power supplies, no extra pieces or parts “just in case” - and no worries about feedback, bad eq, etc. I got my guitar, unplugged it sounds really good, and if I need to plug in, I know it will still sound really good. The UltraTonic is the first system I’ve tried that is all that -

Now, add in the Tonedexter, and you’ve moved way beyond just getting a good signal. And honestly, I love having that possibility, but most places don’t have the quality of room, or even the quality of audience, to appreciate the differences - so I won’t bother. But having the option, and knowing it’s easily within my reach, is fantastic. But I’d happily go without my Tonedexter as long as I’ve got my UltraTonic installed - luckily thats not a choice that’s forced on me -

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by fwphoto

I would consider adding a mic to the K&K a significant upgrade that would definitely improve it's output. I've never used that combination (K&K + mic) but imagine that effectively blending the mic & K&K signals, and then running the signal through a ToneDexter would significantly improve the sound quality & probably bring the boomy-ness & feedback under control. That said, just adding the Ultra Tonic accomplishes that, too.

Bottom line, you're adding the mic & processing through the ToneDexter & the Ultra Tonic adds an additional sensor & a chip on the jack that effectively controls feedback. I suspect each approach ends up sounding different from the other, but I can assure you that the Ultra Tonic converted K&K sounds way better than just the K&K & has totally eliminated the boom & feedback associated with just the K&K.

The K&K worked fine for me until I started playing in a loud environment. I played a K&K equipped D-18 & also a K&K'd OM-21 & both had significant feedback issues. Even with lots of EQ I still needed feedback busters in their sound holes to eliminated the feedback. The Ultra Tonic conversion not only made the K&Ks sound better, it totally eliminated the feedback. IMO, it provided a much simpler solution than adding a mic & running through a ToneDexter or other sophisticated (read: expensive :-) electronics.

Of course, IMO, YMMV, my .02, etc.

Frank

Hi Frank
Just to clarify.

I'd never combine a K&K plus internal mic through the ToneDexter. First of all, you'd have to put it through a 2 channel preamp first, and then convert it to a mono-output and then run it into the ToneDexter.

The ToneDexter quickly pulls WaveMaps with an external microphone while sampling the pickup at the same time. From that sampling, it creates the WaveMap.

For playback, all one needs is the actual guitar which was 'sampled', including the pickup it was sampled with…playing back through the ToneDexter. It's not intended to record one guitar and play all my guitars through it. Each guitar has to have specific WaveMaps recorded for specifically it.

That just involves my guitar with the K&K (no internal mic). The heavy 'lifting' is done by the ToneDexter. It's really freeing to take a small gear bag (a small tool bag from Lowe's), with my ToneDexter, and my guitar and cable.

Speaking to the issue of feedback control with a dual source pickup in a guitar, I've not often had issues with the K&K dual source with internal mics, and when I did a feedback buster (big black rubber soundhole plug) resolved it easily. And I've played in some really loud groups with it turned up to appropriate mix levels.

Dealing with feedback has so many elements to consider - the main 4 including floor monitors, decibel levels on stage, skill levels and experience of PA techs, and the ability to trim the bass (referred to as Hi-pass or Low-cut).

[fwphoto]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I'd never combine a K&K plus internal mic through the ToneDexter. First of all, you'd have to put it through a 2 channel preamp first, and then convert it to a mono-output and then run it into the ToneDexter.

I've considered the ToneDexter & have a basic understanding how it works. Very interesting tech. Didn't James May have a hand in making it? Never used one myself but you never know. :-)

I thought that the signals from the K&K + the onboard mic would be blended at the guitar & that signal would be used along with the reference mic for the ToneDexter to develop the Wavemaps. Interesting.

So, when you are playing & using the ToneDexter you are not blending the K&K + mic. Good to know the ToneDexter works well with the K&K.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

That just involves my guitar with the K&K (no internal mic). The heavy 'lifting' is done by the ToneDexter. It's really freeing to take a small gear bag (a small tool bag from Lowe's), with my ToneDexter, and my guitar and cable.

That does sound ideal.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Speaking to the issue of feedback control with a dual source pickup in a guitar, I've not often had issues with the K&K dual source with internal mics, and when I did a feedback buster (big black rubber soundhole plug) resolved it easily. And I've played in some really loud groups with it turned up to appropriate mix levels.

That was my solution, too. I wasn't all that happy about it but had pretty much accepted the feedback buster as the only solution. Then I heard about Ultra Tonic's K&K conversion option I decided to try it. My first impression was that the guitar sounded much better with the converted pickup. String balance was improved & I was pleasantly surprised by the overall sound quality. I was convinced, though, when I first played that guitar (OM-21) with the large Praise band I play in. Piano, keyboard, electric & acoustic guitars, bass, drums, multiple vocalists, usually 2 violins & the occasional guest musician or small choir backup group. Almost everyone will have a monitor & it gets pretty loud up there. ZERO feedback! And I can hear my guitar! :-) Yeah, I'm convinced. I replaced the K&K with the full version of the Ultra Tonic in my old D-18 when it was in for some work.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Dealing with feedback has so many elements to consider - the main 4 including floor monitors, decibel levels on stage, skill levels and experience of PA techs, and the ability to trim the bass (referred to as Hi-pass or Low-cut).[/size]

Yep, lots of moving parts. Enough to drive one mad! :-)

Obviously there is more than one way to defeat feedback. I was always able to handle it in the past with EQ (including a Dual-Channel Parametric box) & low-cut filters. Then, about 4 years ago I started playing in this new, large, loud band & was stumped. Ended up with the feedback buster solution. It does work as advertised. Happy with the discovery of the Ultra Tonic, though.

If I still played small venues (not loud bars! :-) or open mics I'd really be interested in the ToneDexters ability to bring out the acoustic sound when amplifying. I'll bet your guitars sound terrific amplified using the ToneDexter! As you know, though, everything changes when the volume goes up, way up! In my case I've traded acoustic sound quality for feedback containment.

Anyway, it sounds like you have 3 basic setups for amplified play. 1) K&K only with ToneDexter for what I would consider tamer environments :-) or 2) K&K + mic into tone-shaping controls with the feedback buster ready if needed for louder venues. 3) Playing into a quality mic [with or without onboard pickup(s)?]. Did I get that right or am I oversimplifying things?

BTW - I always look forward to & enjoy your comments here!

Take care,

Frank