Mountain Modal Interest

[Mr. Jelly]

I ran into the term 'Mountain Modal'. So, I do the usual search and I didn't find a whole lot of information. I think it comes down to playing an Ionian scale over chords that are not major or minor. Indeterminate is a word I ran into. I think the song that I play 'Elzic's Farewell' is a Mountain Modal tune, but I really don't know what I'm talking about. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I ran into the term 'Mountain Modal'. So, I do the usual search and I didn't find a whole lot of information. I think it comes down to playing an Ionian scale over chords that are not major or minor. Indeterminate is a word I ran into. I think the song that I play 'Elzic's Farewell' is a Mountain Modal tune, but I really don't know what I'm talking about. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks

gDGCD on banjo for clawhammer playing of aeolian tunes (cluck Old Hen, Cold and Frosy Morning, Elzic's, Sally in the Garden etc). But normally capo'd to aEADE to fit with a fiddle cross tuned to AEae. It is not a reference to a guitar tuning - the guitar was rather late to the old time party!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I ran into the term 'Mountain Modal'. So, I do the usual search and I didn't find a whole lot of information. I think it comes down to playing an Ionian scale over chords that are not major or minor. Indeterminate is a word I ran into. I think the song that I play 'Elzic's Farewell' is a Mountain Modal tune, but I really don't know what I'm talking about. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks

It means a specific tuning - also known as "Mountain minor" or "Sawmill" AFAIK. Traditionally on banjo, now common on guitar, it lends itself to one or two keys, but the keys could be major or minor. That's what "modal" means: with a determined keynote, but not necessarily a traditional major or minor "key", and typically in dorian or mixolydian (common folk modes) rather than aeolian or ionian.

So, in a minor key (a minor chord as "i"), the mode might be aeolian or dorian. (Phrygian is possible, but extremely rare in country music.)

With a major chord as "I", the mode might be ionian or mixolydian. (Again, the other major mode, lydian, would be vanishingly rare in this genre.)

E.g., the banjo tuning gDGCD (an open Gsus4 chord, or partial D7sus4) could be used for G major (ionian or mixolydian), G minor (aeolian or dorian); or for D mixolydian or any of the D minor modes. Modes on C are also all available, but perhaps less often used. I.e., the two Gs and two Ds lend themselves better to drone strings in those keys, and modal music is often characterized by drones, melodies, and very few chord changes (if any).

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I ran into the term 'Mountain Modal'. So, I do the usual search and I didn't find a whole lot of information. I think it comes down to playing an Ionian scale over chords that are not major or minor. Indeterminate is a word I ran into. I think the song that I play 'Elzic's Farewell' is a Mountain Modal tune, but I really don't know what I'm talking about. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks

Well pretty much all that JonPR wrote to which I would add
If you want to mimic that old timey sound and still use chords ( sort of) then elliminate the 3rd from chords and replace with another tonic or 5 note ( of the chord) . You can also try swapping 3rds for 2nds or 4ths see if you like the effect. These would be the ''indeterminate' chords refered to.

Don't use any chords containing a note which is not in the melody.
If you don't know how to modify your familiar chord shapes then do some research into music theory as it relates to chord construction .

[Robin, Wales]

You guys are far more technically minded than me! LOL! I just played the darn stuff, not really knowing what was going on but listening to fiddlers and banjo players in sessions then hacking along on trad noter drone dulcimer, or clawhammer banjo - learning everything by ear.

What has been said about playing using drones, and being ambiguous with major and minor I can relate to. There are a number of tunes in mixolidian (fiddlers seem to like to do them in A) where you have to listen hard to it context tell that it is not a minor melody.

The "mountain" reference is to Appalachian music - so I think that a good place to start to understand the genera is to listen to old fiddlers and banjo players like the Hammonds Family or Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham.

Regarding the guitar: Most old time sessions that I have been to (i.e. where mountain modal tuning is being used by banjos and cross tuning by fiddles) the guitar has either not been present - or has been laying down a strict boom/chick rhythm. Certainly not playing any sort of melody. I have seen a few guitarists working from DADGAD, and, whilst not traditional, it does work nicely within the genera. Fiddle running the melody supported by DADGAD guitar playing rhythm is a haunting sound.

Rhythm is pretty crucial to getting that Appalachian drive to the music - it sort of defines the genera. In a good old time session the players sit in a really close huddle - creating a cauldron to burn up the tunes.

In Elzic's Farewell in my signature below I played DADGAD guitar as a backing to noter/drone dulcimer. I don't really play DADGAD, or at least have never been taught how to play it, so I just made up chords that fitted the movement of the melody. It is pretty easy to do in DADGAD with mostly two or 3 finger chords moved up and down the neck, playing around until it sounds "right". It took me a couple of hours of messing around with the tuning to build and record the backing, then I laid the dulcimer over the top.

If I was going to get into "mountain modal" tunes on guitar as solo instrumental pieces then I think I would have a play around with DADGAD. I reckon that I could pick out a melody and have drones running behind it in something like a fiddle shuffle rhythm.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

You guys are far more technically minded than me! LOL! I just played the darn stuff, not really knowing what was going on but listening to fiddlers and banjo players in sessions then hacking along on trad noter drone dulcimer, or clawhammer banjo - learning everything by ear.
.

Like you I do learn melodies by ear ( from cds,some more acurately than others). The chord construction and music theory knowledge I use to explore the harmonies needed to turn a melody into a fingerstyle arrangement or have chords to sing to, if I didn't know that stuff my only alternative would be either to just play other peoples arrangements from tab which I do rarely as I don't enjoy the process or play random notes all over the fretboard trying to find notes that harmonise with the melody.
Knowledge of this stuff makes the player aware that there are allways many alternative possibilities as long as they are physically playable.
For example Star Of The County Down is probably the iconic Irish song that everyone knows, in A most people use chords Am C and G some add the F chord for some fancy chord substitution which allows the A note to be harmonised with one of two chords, that's pretty much how most people play that song and I do too. The melody is modal but I don't think listeners hear anything about it that's much different to most of the acoustic guitar music they hear. But I play another song called Dives and Lazarus which uses exactly the same melody but I use knowledge of intervals and chord construction to create harmonies which actually sound modal and so the listener hears something very different to the point that a lot of people don't even realise the two melodies are the same.
If you're playing tunes on bango or dulcimer you don't need to bother so much with chord theory because those instruments sound fine with just a drone played over the melody, I think with solo guitar you have to do more to actually make what is really a puny instrument sound any good.

[Mr. Jelly]

Just for fun I thought I'd throw this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ9EY-mPtwU

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Just for fun I thought I'd throw this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ9EY-mPtwU

Yes a lot of rythm players who accompany music just like that in Irish sessions will use chords with no 3rd, no idea what the guy in the video is doing sorry. Great sounding tune though.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by JonPR

E.g., the banjo tuning gDGCD (an open Gsus4 chord, or partial D7sus4) could be used for G major (ionian or mixolydian), G minor (aeolian or dorian); or for D mixolydian or any of the D minor modes.

BTW, this tuning is similar to the tuning Steve Baughman has coined "Orkney", also used by many others, Tony McManus, Martin Simpson, Stephen Wake. On the guitar, it's CGDGCD, or some people also use DGDGCD. I just shot a couple of lessons on Orkney for Peghead Nation, including an example that uses both mixolydian and dorian modes. It's a fun tuning (that also happens to be very closely related to DADGAD....)

[Al Acuff]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Just for fun I thought I'd throw this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ9EY-mPtwU

That's an interesting example since the first music that "mountain modal" brings to my mind is this recording. Great minds think alike



This is a great example too:

[Rudy4]

JonPR's comments are excellent. Although I play banjo (many times in modal tunings), I also play the same tunes on guitar and highly recommend standard dropped D tuning. Elzic's is certainly a favorite of mine.

[Rudy4]

I posted one of my renditions of Elzic's Farewell (in drop D tuning, but capoed...) over in the Show And Tell forum:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...76#post6993876

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

If I was going to get into "mountain modal" tunes on guitar as solo instrumental pieces then I think I would have a play around with DADGAD. I reckon that I could pick out a melody and have drones running behind it in something like a fiddle shuffle rhythm.

It's worth trying this the other way round playing the melody on the bass with a thumb pick and playing a drone like accompaniment on treble strings with the fingers. Where it sounds like the drone is clashing with the melody then change the drone to a different 'chord' with no 3rd.

[Retired1]

I also very much enjoy the mountain modal sound as in the above 'The Cuckoo Bird' and tunes like Craggy Pinnacle, but I'm lazy and just use drop D tuning and I find it works well for me with Dm And C chords. Actually play Shady Grove that way also.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Retired1

I also very much enjoy the mountain modal sound as in the above 'The Cuckoo Bird' and tunes like Craggy Pinnacle, but I'm lazy and just use drop D tuning and I find it works well for me with Dm And C chords. Actually play Shady Grove that way also.

Sure works fine, you could try eliminating the 3rd from Dm and replace with open E to have Dsus 2 and a more modal sound.
That"s assuming your"re playing melody on bass.