I Need to Stop Thinking

[OliveCorduroy]

Hello again all,

So I have posted a couple of posts on the forum in the past couple of weeks; an open chords post and recently, an acoustic vs. electric post. The responses that I received have been extremely helpful, but now I find that I have yet, another question - one about instructional books. But I won’t ask it; it’s more of the same as the other posts of mine which got me thinking. Thinking is the problem.

I am an older adult(56 years old) trying to learn how to play guitar. Music has always been a part of my life so playing guitar is a natural fit. But, for me, I am finding that learning to play the guitar as an adult has with it the challenge of overthinking the whole process and it is really starting to halt my progress. Analyzing everything has taken the place of practice. This needs to change.

When I was young(8 years old), I wanted to play baseball. My dad gave me a glove so I put it on. I didn’t ask how to put it on, or what hand to put it on, what it was made of, or where it came from. I just put it on. He then threw me a ball and said to throw it back to him. So I threw him the ball. I didn’t ask how I should angle my arm to throw it, or how to aim the ball, or was this ball the same one that the big leaguers used. No, I just threw him the ball. He then handed me a baseball bat and I held it just like I saw how they did it on television. I swung it around a few times and my dad pitched me the ball; and I swung - just like that. I think you get the idea. I went on to be part of a team that won the state championship in high school. And it all began without thinking.

So, for me, I guess I need to start thinking like my 8 year old self. It was so much easier when thinking, overthinking, analyzing, etc. wasn’t involved. I didn’t ask about anything - I just did it. I could learn a lot from that little baseball player.

George

[Robin, Wales]

George,

This is not uncommon - a good 25% or more of folks rely on their thinking process as the first point of call when learning something new. The "problem" is only if it gets in the way of the end result.

Have a look at the work of Honey and Mumford on learning styles - there is plenty of info on the web. In a nutshell, they identified four types of learning preference:

Activist: Activists are people who learn best by doing. They like to get their hands dirty and are enthusiastic about being thrown in at the deep end and trying new things.

Reflector: Reflectors are people who learn best when they can observe others and think about what they have just observed. They avoid jumping straight in and prefer to watch first.

Theorist: Theorists are people who learn best by understanding the theory behind why something is the way it is. They need models, concepts, and facts to be able to learn effectively. (It sounds like you may fall here!)

Pragmatist: Pragmatists learn best when they can see how what they are learning can be put into practice in the real world.

The "trick", if there is one, is not to get stuck in your own preference. To truly learn something you have to go around the circle and visit all the preferences. It is a learning cycle.

I have worked with a lot of theorists (I am one myself!) when teaching fast jet military aircrew. And sometimes the best "theory" is not to have one about an expected outcome but simply do the activity and see what happens. Then allow yourself to build your own theory based on the real time results. Allow yourself to fail through physically trying stuff out.

I often play the activist myself when trying out something new - and it is surprisingly effective! Playing guitar is a physical activity - so the overwhelming balance must be towards training physical movement.

Anyway, I'm pressed for time at present or I could go on for hours! But that's enough for you to be getting on with.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Activist: Activists are people who learn best by doing. They like to get their hands dirty and are enthusiastic about being thrown in at the deep end and trying new things.

Reflector: Reflectors are people who learn best when they can observe others and think about what they have just observed. They avoid jumping straight in and prefer to watch first.

Theorist: Theorists are people who learn best by understanding the theory behind why something is the way it is. They need models, concepts, and facts to be able to learn effectively. (It sounds like you may fall here!)

Pragmatist: Pragmatists learn best when they can see how what they are learning can be put into practice in the real world.

Interesting! I'm tempted to say I'm all four, but probably a combination of activist and reflector, mostly, with pragmatist thrown in. Obviously I love theory, but I've always treated it as background, not foreground, as it were.

I wouldn't say I'm always "enthusiastic about being thrown in at the deep end" - in fact I'm usually pretty reticent with new activities. But it really isn't possible to learn any new task without actually getting your hands dirty as soon as possible. So I guess that makes me primarily a reflector.

IOW, I think there is always a fear of getting things wrong.

That obviously doesn't bother the pure activist - which would be how you'd define one, I guess. But "fear of getting it wrong" would be what drives the other three. You might be scared you'd injure yourself, or you might be scared to be embarrassed by being seen to be awkward or clumsy. So you either watch others closely, or you read the rules (if you can).

Personally (and this may help the OP), when I first started teaching myself guitar, I was already old enough for embarrassment to be a problem (which it usually isn't when your're 8!). I obviously knew what guitar was supposed to sound like - I'd done a fair amount from the "Reflector" and "Pragmatist" angles! - and then the "Theorist" input was the book I taught myself from. Obviously that also meant I was being an "Activist" from the start. (And in fact a friend had taught me a riff or two even before I had my own guitar and started teaching myself.)

But the significant thing is that I didn't tell my friends I'd started learning; I kept it a secret, because I didn't want to expose my lack of skill too soon. I wanted to get some basics under my belt in order to at least be able to demonstrate something - and perhaps to join in with them. (That period was six months in the end.)

I'm very much the same with any new task, where I'm likely to be around experts in that task at some point. I want to try it for myself without being observed - because what I really hate is looking stupid. That's why I don't much like being taught, and prefer to teach myself everything I can - and then do it my way.

This has actually given me problems in my (non-musical) career. I learn to do things by trial and error (maybe a combination of all four of those approaches), to a point where I'm reasonably successful doing it my way. But if I hit a snag - because my process is an unorthodox one - it's then too embarrassing to ask for help, because then I expose my ignorance, my lack of qualification for the job. I should know that stuff by now! So I attempt to sneakily watch how others do it. I.e., I become a "Stealth Reflector"

[sinistral]

Howard Hill came up with a similar method for leaning to play musical instruments. Perhaps you should call your approach the “Overthink Method.”

[firenza]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I wanted to get some basics under my belt in order to at least be able to demonstrate something -

I'm very much the same with any new task, where I'm likely to be around experts in that task at some point. I want to try it for myself without being observed -

I do identify with this. I never see the point of playing something you know you're going to get wrong, until you get to the stage where you can play it 'sort-of' and need feedback on technique.

Re different approaches to learning, I'm not sure you can change your approach. It's a part of your personality. But if you look for a tutor, I'd say you need to find one who mirrors your own approach. It's just confusing if you ask question and the tutor's response is to 'show' you the answer by zooming up and down the guitar if what you need is an explanation the theory behind something.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by firenza

It's just confusing if you ask question and the tutor's response is to 'show' you the answer by zooming up and down the guitar if what you need is an explanation the theory behind something.

Sure! That's just bad teaching.

IMO (as a teacher) it's not so much about identifying the student's preferred manner of learning - as in those text-book definitions - but in checking understanding all the time. Slowing down, demonstrating, asking questions or getting the student to play (testing the student's understanding) and encouraging the student to ask questions. A lot of the time, students are too shy to ask questions - and I know that feeling!

IOW, there are certainly individual differences between students in how they learn most easily. But there are also common problems in all teacher-student interactions, and most of those are down to poor teaching: typically it's the teacher taking things for granted because they have become subconscious knowledge, which is why they often go too fast.

As a student, if you think you don't understand something, it's easy to to think it's your fault for being stupid or slow. You don't want to ask a "silly question". But there is no such thing as a silly question. Sometimes - in fact most of the time - the questions that feel silliest are the best and most fertile ones. (Personally, as a teacher, I love those questions. It's always the ones the student feels embarrassed to ask, and they always open up the route I need to follow as a teacher - it often means taking a step or two back, but that's fine. We both have to be on the same path!)

If you don't understand something in a lesson, it's ALWAYS the teacher's fault. Unless you don't actually ask them to explain. In that case, it's YOUR fault! If they explain and you still don't understand, it's still their fault. Or maybe you wandered into a nuclear physics lesson instead of a guitar lesson....

[firenza]

Originally Posted by JonPR

. Or maybe you wandered into a nuclear physics lesson instead of a guitar lesson....

Which God forbid . But that's all very wise and encouraging. I'm going to start quoting you on this, Jon!

[RLetson]

It's appropriate that we call it "playing" music, even when getting good at it requires quite a bit of work. In the OP's initial post, the memory of starting to play baseball reflects the way most of us start to acquire a physical skill set--we play, taking pleasure in the activity at whatever level of skill we might develop just via repetition. But the end-point, championship-level team play, must certainly be arrived at by more focused *work*: practice and coaching and discipline. At some point, there is a transition from back-yard or pickup play to that more structured set of activities. I suppose a non-team-sport comparison would be golf, where serious amateurs make the transition from watching the more skilled members of their usual foursome to getting instruction and advice from the course pro, just to improve their *play* experience.

In any case, playing music starts with play. (I'm ignoring classical-style training, which has a different set of expectations and demands and pretty much jumps over the "play" stage.) Where it goes from there depends on what one wants out of the activity: Solo amusement/self expression? Pure achievement? Social music-making? Performing? I suspect that most amateur players make a progress through those areas. And in decades of workshop attendance, I've seen plenty of guitarists for whom the play or social aspects were less important than technical achievement, like weight lifters aspiring to bench-press more than their body weight.

[reeve21]

OP--In golf they used to call overthinking things "paralysis by analysis"--trying to think about how to hit the ball while doing it doesn't work!

Do you ever "noodle"--just mess around and see what happens? If that is too unstructured, try playing along to the recordings of some favorite songs. Just let things happen without a lot of conscious thought. Your brain knows how to play if you stay out of its way. There is a lot of fun in these activities, and they will engage the right brain, which is where you want to be when actually performing a tune (after you have used your left brain skills to learn it).

Recognizing the problem is the first step to solving it, well done

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by OliveCorduroy

...I went on to be part of a team that won the state championship in high school. And it all began without thinking....

Yeah, but I bet that was accompanied by thousands of hours of practice. I remember playing catch with my brother, throwing each other grounders and fly balls. Thousands of hours over years 9-12! No, we didn't "think" about it a whole lot, but we sure did practice - cause we enjoyed it.

[Mr. Jelly]

I never did learn how to play the guitar correctly. I started before there were learning tools and I was a child. I learned a chord and would bang on it all the time. Then I learned another chord and banged away. I enjoyed it. Fifty plus years later I kind of do the same thing. I learn something and use it. I'm really happy with where I'm at now as I'm learning and doing / playing things from a bucket list that I didn't know existed. Keeping it fun is my highest music priority.

[CollingsPicker]

Many people do overthink things. That’s not always had. What’s happened over the past 20 years is that people have become more and more dependent on the Internet as a crutch. Instead of going to a local Guitar store or instructor and talking with them about developing a playing and learning regimen, they jump on the Internet and ask somebody else to solve their problems (Not directed at the OP). How do I, where do I, when should I? The old fashion ways still apply with the addition of online instruction. We now have books, teachers, self-taught, and now, the big gorilla, which is YouTube where anyone at almost any time can get instruction on almost anything. More resources than ever for someone learning to play or do almost anything. Enjoy your quest but everyone has to remember it’s their quest and they need to find their own way through the maze.

[mr. beaumont]

Learn songs. That's the best advice I can give anybody. Learn songs. Songs you want to know. That's why we play, right?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Learn songs. That's the best advice I can give anybody. Learn songs. Songs you want to know. That's why we play, right?

Absolutely. Been saying that for years on the forum. That plus listening to music to develop a good ear and a feel for how to play musically.

[tbirdman]

First thing I would do is read the Laws of Brainjo. It's a great book for those who are learning.

I think I was fortunate 2 years ago when I stumbled as a new guitar player on Justin Guitar and his beginner lessons. A very structured way to learn with organized practices.

Since then I have graduated to online instructors and now I'm taking piano, singing and guitar lessons from three instructors.

What drives me crazy is when an instructor says what do you want to do. I want them to provide structure to my guitar journey. Though they weren't as bad as one instructor who never requested me to play anything for him. That was a waste of 3 months with him although he drove me to learn learn music theory. He couldn't explain what thirds were to me, so I ended up taking a class on music theory. I got enough theory to now to be able to discuss music theory with instructors as it applies to my lessons.