I need a 'magic decoder ring' for the fretboard...HELP!

[EllaMom]

Totally agree, Fazool. I keep my guitar in its case at all times unless I'm playing it. I think a big herkin' black guitar case in the middle of the living room floor looks rather fetching!

[fazool]

Originally Posted by sionmorris

Forgive the plug, but I have such a magic Mode De-coder ring!

Interesting and nicely designed tool - sort of like a super-advanced Circle Of Fifths.

But, Ella was looking for notes on the fingerboard not modes.

I am still using Doug Marks' lesson from his Metal Method website and find it the best memorization method there is (for me).

[macmanmatty]

I know of a magic decoder for ANY fret board no matter how it's tuned!!! It's called music / chord theory. Buy a good book and read it until you understand it. Learn chord theory / what notes of the scale are required to make up the given chord and what notes from the scale of the root note of the chord are allowable in the key your playing in. Learn ALL of the major / minor/ pentonic scales / key signatures, Know what the strings are tuned to and figure out all open chord shapes. Using this I can play in ANY tuning with just a few mins of practice.

[EllaMom]

I'm on it, MMM. I have purchased several books to help me better understand the "science" of music, if you will, to complement the "art" of the discipline.

Interestingly, what this means for me is that part of my daily "practice" includes reading, not picking/strumming!

[dangrunloh]

The posts on this thread are just fantastic!

http://www.amazon.com/Scales-Over-Ch.../dp/1884848052

The book and CD "Scales over Chords" by Wilbur Savidge was very helpful for me to understand the fretboard, patterns, positions, and the different modes. There's more here than you may want, but as he says you can learn to improvise with no mistakes or bad notes if you know what chord you are on, and you have memorized the scale patterns. Pick a simple song and learn to play it everywhere on the neck and in each pattern C-A-G-D-E. Pentatonic scales a good place to start (good for blues) but the major and minor scales in each of the 5 patterns or course also needed.

You need to be able to jump around the neck following the chords progression and play "scales over chords" to improvise without mistakes or "fishing" for the right note.

He says and others here also suggest than after a while you just "know" without thinking (or your fingers know) where to go for the next measure. Provided you know the next chord.

[coder]

As a first step into music theory, I recommend that you rote memorize the notes of the triads that can be build from the note inventory of the Cmajor scale.
Like: C-E-G, G-B-D, D-F-A, A-C-E E-G-B B-D-F, F-A-C . Note that some of these will be major triads and some minor.
The major or mino-ness of a chord depends on the kind of "third" interval the it has: the minor thirs is 3 semitones "wide" and the major third is 4 semitones.
For example: C-E is a major third. A-C is a minor third. iut works out thios way, because the C major scale has both whole tone and semitone "note distances" in it.
for example C-D is a whole tone skip. But E-F is a semitone. When we are constructiong chords from the note inventory if the C major scale, the chords will work out
differently, depending on where we hit those semitone intevals.

One way is to look at the keys on a piano. Some white keys do not have an in-beween black key, such as B-C and E-F. Those are the semitone intervals.


Once you know the key of C triads, it is ieasy to extend the knowledge. For example, to figure out the Bb ( B flat major) triad, which you initially did not memorize:
you just "flat" the B triad: B-D-F ---> Bb-Db-E

Note that the roots in the way I grouped the chords are a 5th apart. I gave you the chords with theior roots arranged in a circle-of-5th pattern.
Also note that some of the chords above are major, some are minor. that is what falls out from using the "note inventory" of the major scale as I explained above.

The circle of fiths idea is based on the followig: Chord motion tends to sound the most logical and easiest for our ears to follow when the chords are strung together in a way that
the roots "perform" a circle of fifths movement. So the root of the chords often "move" 4-up", or 5 down (same thing)

If you know what notes are in a chord, and you know where the notes are on the fretboard, you have a set of notes that you know will sound good against the particular chords. If someone plays a C major chord, you can surely play C, E or G, and any of those notes will sound good with that chord.

If you want to extend your knowledge to 4 voice chords, such as the C Maj7, the 4th note you want to add is a semitone below the root. (Root is C, Major 7th is B)
An useful trick is to deduct the octave from the interval. You get the same upper note, an octave below. Like in the above example:
The major 7th is c-> octave C minus a semitone. So the B would be really 11 semitones up. However there is the lower octave of this B, which is 1 semitone down from the C
and that one is much easier to figure out and to find.
The figure out "which note" is a particular interval, it is often a lot easier to figure out the upper or lower octave of this note, closest to the root.

Another example: What is the "9th" of C? well it is the 9th note counting up from C, where C is counted as 1.
Like: C,d,e,f,g,a,b,c,D. Notice, that there is a much easier way to get to D: The lkower octave of the D we are after is simply the next note up from the root. (D) . The 9th is the same note as the 2nd.
Well, really it is the 9th note, but it is also the next note, if you just want to know "which note is it?" (Next note plus an octave, but those are still both D notes)

The basic approach is the beachead approach. You establish a beachead of some well understood and memorized piece of knowlege (in this case the triads you can build on the
notes of the C scale) and then extend this knowledge in small increments. You tie the new knowledge to the old, which you have already mastered.

An easy way to construct melodies against a set of chord changes, is just use one or more of the chord tones for each chord. (Can you say arpeggios?)

The next thing is to practice scales. first as simple ascending and descending
scales, and then pattern scales. Practicing these enough and you can develop a skill where you can imagine some melody and then play it, a skill similar to how you whistle a melody.
You do not necessarily even know how you are doing it, but you can develop this same facility on an instrument.

There is a lot more to it, but maybe this gives you an idea of where the path lays.
I could easily slip into extending this message in to a basic chordal theory tutorial, but I resist the urge for now. There are some out there, some of it even undertandable to mere mortals. :-)

I have been playing for a very long time, and was a working musician for many years surviving without any undertanding of theory. (Luckily my first teacher beat the triads into me, which enabled me to survive
as a bass player)
I have not really learned theory until 15 years ago, where I started teaching an inquisitive colleague, who kept pestering me with questions. So I had to look some of this up, and I never looked back.
I highly recommend getting into theory early on. A great intro to the concepts is the Audio course "Theory for the road" by Rich Seversen. Presented with audio examples, in easy to understand terms.
Intervals, scales, chords, and then the rules of how you can string chords together, then the ways of breaking those rules...useful to understand what you are doing and why.
==
Please dont complain about thread necromancy. If the question is relevant to more than the OP, and the answer is useful to others, IMO it is fair game to post to an open thread. If the admins did not want any more posts,
they have the option of closing the thread, so really, it is on them... :-). People don't seem to be able to resist an opportunity demonstrating their superior message board skills and talk about thread necromancy and what not.
If you have a good rationale, please explain to me, what is the harm in posting to an old thread?
I do it all the time. And, as the case may be I edit my posts. For all we know, the OP moved on to greener pastures. OK. I am not posting to him/her. I am posting for the community. Obviously, there is no point in answering an acute, trivial question after some large delay.
I am hoping this topic is still interesting and useful to musicians

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by coder

I recommend that you rote memorize the notes of the triads that can be build from the note inventory of the Cmajor scale.


Like: C-E-G, G-B-D, D-F-A, A-C-E E-G-B B-D-F, F-A-C

Note that the roots in the above ordering are a 5th apart. The roots are arranged in a circle-of-5th pattern.
Also note that some of the chords above are major, some are minor.
that is what falls out from using the note inventory of the major scale.

The circle of fiths idea is based on the followig: Chord motion tends to sound the most logical and easiest for our ears to follow when the chords are string together in a way that the roots follow the circle of fifths. So the root of the chords often "move" 4-up".

If you know what notes are in a chord, and you know where the notes are on the fretboard, you have a set of notes that you know will sound good against the particular chords. If someone plays a C major chord, you can surely play C, E or G and any of those notes will sound good with that chord.

So this is the way to construct melodies against a set of chord changes.

The next thing is to practice scales. first as simple ascending and descending
scales, and then pattern scales. Practicing these leads to a skill where you can imagine some melody and then play it, a skill similar to how you whistle a melody. You do not necessarily even know how you are doing it, but you can develop this facility on an instrument. There is a lot more to it, but maybe this gives you an idea of where the path lays.

Hey Coder…

Not saying your suggestions are not good. The last response to this thread before yours was in December 2013. Your advice is great.

[Stonehauler]

To answer your question about why you should learn where the notes in the fretboard are is because you can use that to form chords or know where the notes of that scale is.

Chords are powerful in that they are notes that go together and can be used to signify harmony, convey happiness (happy little G chord in my best Bob Ross imitation). Can convery sadness through minors, add tension, etc.

On the guitar, chords follow a formula. If you know where the root of the chord is, you can find the third and the fifth. You can also use the formula to change from a major to a minor, or a 7th, a 6th, a 9th. Of course, this gets into why music theory is so powerful.

I am still learning all this, and some people have built systems you can memorize to help you, but if you can understand why the fretboard is laid out the way it is, and understand what the patterns are, your ability to make music goes up tremendously.

You might consider taking some into to music theory classes at your local community college, but talk to your current teacher and see if either they can help you directly, or if they can point you to the best class to realize your goals.

Good luck to you!….whoops, didn’t see this was a 9 year old thread someone necroed.

[EZYPIKINS]

DRINK MORE OVALTINE

[Crosswind]

This ended up being a good thread bump! A lot of good suggestions on here!

[hubcapsc]

What I wasn't getting was WHY I need to know the pentatonic scale. There's still a 'disconnect' in my brain that I'm sure will come with time.

The pentatonic scale is a thing that is there on your guitar that you
Want to know about.

My teacher has shown me the circle of 5th...again, still a bit of a 'disconnect' on that, too.

There’s a lot of information encoded into it. I like it when I can see some of the information on my guitar. Hold down a C on your B string, then the G, D, A and
E strings and back to B... that’s noon through five o’clock on the circle of 5ths.

Standard guitar tuning is in 5ths.

-Mike

[leew3]

Originally Posted by fazool

*TONS* of people will claim they can show/sell you the secret trick but there is none.

Its just a matter of practice and rote memorization.

Understanding scale patterns will help but there is no shortcut, no matter what anyone tries to sell you.

Nailed it ^^^^^

[leew3]

Originally Posted by EZYPIKINS

DRINK MORE OVALTINE

and of course buy the J45!

[coder]

My take on the Pentatonic scale:

Pentatonic scale has less notes than the major/minor or other scales which usually have 7 or more notes. Popular in rock and folk, because it enables players to "Move around" in the a pentatonic scale, and avoid sounding bad together.
It frees the players from having to understand the more complicated concepts, such as keeping track of the chord progression, and wrapping the improvisation around that.
A bass player and a lead guitarist can just go wild, both playing in the same Pentatonic scale, and they end up souding pretty Ok together. For one thing there are a lot fewer clashing note pairings in penta, (since there are only 5 notes instead of 7 to begin with)
Anything played in a pentatonic scale tends to sound good with any random thing played in the same pentatonic. (as long as they are somewhat matched rythmically).
It is the great refuge and enabler of people with minimal musical skills.

The upside is simplicity, and a low barrier to entry. The beginner player can get a taste of improvisation with minimal study and investment in practice hours.
The downside is, that it tends to sound monotonic, and easily turns into something boring. The typical application of pentatonic for improvisation avoids harmonic motion, or keeps it extremely simple and cliche, such as the venerable garden variety blues. Say, you are improvising in "A minor pentatonic": It is common for the entire improvised section to have an A minor-ish tonality, without any sense of harmonic motion. There are exceptions, notice I said "typical".

[Andyrondack]

The significant thing to me about the melody of this song is that it doesn't really need chords, sure like most tunes it can be arpeggiated and if EllaMom was playing a guitar oriented arrangement then playing around with the arrpegios during long held notes is one way to go, but many times Amazing Grace is sung by a congregation with no chordal accompaniment and it sounds just fine. Some say that the composer was influenced the singing and lamenting of the African people he so cruelly transported into slavery, maybe, I don't know anything about what Africans might have sung under such circumstances.
The melody does remind me of the traditional music of the British Isles which the composer would have heard maybe every day working on ships at that time.
Amazing Grace uses a 6 note scale something shared with the tunes to many folk songs so that leads me to using the techniques of ornamentation and creating variations used by traditional singers and instrumentalists today which as far as I can see seem to rely on following one basic rule which is wherever it feels right in relation to the rythmn of the musical phrases extend those phrases by adding more notes taken from the original scale of the song but occupying the same time value and leading to the same melody note as the original, so the original melody remains recognisable and doesn't morph into some chordal based improvisation which buries the tune.
I think this sort of approach would answer EllaMom's original query of years ago where she states that wants to fill out the 'gaps' now there aren't any gaps but what there is are some notes held longer than others and I think what she heard in her head was more notes occupying the same time value as these longer held notes.