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  #31  
Old 02-01-2013, 01:50 PM
waveform waveform is offline
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Yea I agree with Rosedad, some great words of wisdom from some one whose been there. I really appreciated everyone's input.
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  #32  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:33 PM
trion12 trion12 is offline
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Originally Posted by HHP View Post
You're such an elitist. Why should performing be limited to people with talent. Everybody has a right to be a star without all that tedious practicing and learning.
And won't it be great that we will all sound the same . . .
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  #33  
Old 02-02-2013, 08:19 AM
iamtaylor iamtaylor is offline
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I'm no a fan at all. A guy in a band I used to sing in had one and it irritated the heck out of the vocalists when he would try to use it. Maybe if he had been a better vocalist it would have been received a little better, I don't know. I looked at it as trying to over compensate for lacking in other areas.

I saw a solo artist use one and another guitar duo use one at a local bar this summer and I although it wasn't unpleasant it just seemed weird and cheesy. But many others in the crowd loved it so its just my opinion.

Also, in December I went to see some comedians and one guy wrote parodies and played his guitar (a Taylor btw) and he used the vocalizer - to me it seemed to fit in well in this setting.
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Last edited by iamtaylor; 02-04-2013 at 06:10 AM. Reason: Added content
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  #34  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:21 PM
Jasonbee6868 Jasonbee6868 is offline
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Default This is a bit of repeat from my 'other' post..but,

There is no silver bullet that can change awful to awesome (if there was....I'd get it LOL). It can only 'guide' you - - - here my other post (it's how I 'see' auto correct).....

To start with, I use & like TC Helicon products & its pitch correction. But that being said, I used to suggest to anyone who'll listen to try vocal effects & P/Correction out. I no longer suggest people go there. Why?? Because what I call a "silver bullet" is not what someone else calls a "silver bullet".

To clarify - TC has 2 types of pitch adjustment. One they call "Hard Tune". That effect puts the notes you're trying to hit into 1 of the 7 notes of the scale/key you are in. This is the Kanye, "Robot", Cher etc effect. Most noticeable on slid vocal notes (because it jumps as soon as you are past 1/2 way to the next scale degree. hence the robot sound). Cool as a once a night joke thing, but that's about it. The other type of pitch adjustment is the "Auto Tune". This pulls the note sung to the nearest chromatic note. This effect is the one I love. It has a adjustment on it. On a more subtle setting it still allows for sliding of note (cause remember while sliding between notes, everything is "out of tune" technically speaking). In the studio this is great. Why? Because you sing, think you sung great, leave, engineer applies as needed, you come back tomorrow & listen back & think you are awesome. Instant morale booster. Also - - - 99.999999999999% of people can't hear this type of subtle correction. Now that I know what to listen for - - I CAN NOT find a studio recording without it (in the last 30 or so years mind you). It's everywhere. Prime example - ALL the Boyce Ave videos. It's ALL over everything.

Sounds awesome right. Yes - for studio. But live is another animal all together. In the studio - never will you play 2 tracks together (one not in tune & one in tune). Why? Cause it'll sound like a guitar with 1 string out of tune. So you only ever hear 1 track at a time. BUT LIVE - you get your unaffected voice reverberating through the cavities in your head & a tuned voice coming out of the monitors. This will sound like a warble/chorusing/terrible sound. And as long as the audience can't hear your unaffected voice - they will think you're great. BUT YOU will hear terrible sounds - which translates to lower morale. Everyone I suggested a pitch correcting product to HATED it. Every one of them complained of this warble. Most had to shut off the pitch correction after the 1st couple songs. Then they came back to me & said I didn't know my head from my....... Then how is it suppose to be great?? It works for people who - when they sing with a record, are bang on & when they sing without a guiding voice are off. So the tuned voice they hear, they subconsciencly match the pitch. Our minds are wierd in that they can tune 2 of the same instrument easier. It's harder to sing a G & match it to a guitar than it is to match to another voice. That being said - It's harder to hear the warble/chorusing from a voice & guitar out from each other. Prime example - watch ANY live act (youtube hit). Most are EXTREMELY pitchy. But why doesn't anyone mind? It's hard to discern pitch between voice & instrument. Easier to voice to voice. Translation - most people don't notice. Most non musicians just hear this as - he's "smooth" or he's "edgy" or he's "rough". Mind you - as long as you're close.

Hear's a TC Helicon video showing what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-vMSp1C3-I


When I 1st started out with - I thought that I could live with this "chorusing". Man was I wrong. If you want a taste - tune your guitar perfect, now take the G & B string & detune it exactly 2 turns of the tuning key - now play a song. Not bad you say? Now play 3 hours non stop. That's what it's like.

A lot of people say - "Well this person or that person isn't pitchy". And now that I'm chasing this rabbit - I can't believe most musician's can't hear pitch problems. Goes to show the old adage that "Close enough for rock n roll" still stands.

A really good comparison is metronomes. Everybody thinks the metronome is broken when they 1st start working with one. Then after awhile they realize that their time is a bit off. But why didn't anyone except the machine catch it. Because the machine is "perfect" - we humans aren't. Close enough, often, is good enough.

This is why I LOVE pitch correction. When I 1st started with it ALL I heard was warble. I was mortified. I went to 5 DIFFERENT vocal coaches & teachers. NONE of them said I had pitchyness/pitch problems. Only the piano teacher at the local collage (friend of a friend) said I was a bit off. But even he said I was good enough & to not worry about it. But the correction (just like the metronome before it) said I was a touch out. THIS is how it was my "silver bullet". I kept at it till I next to never heard the warble. (again same as the metronome before it - keep at it till your playing hides the click because they are SO synced). Now I leave it on all the time just as a constant evaluator.

Another wierd bit - non-musician's have an easier time matching voice pitch to another voice sometimes. Why? I think it's because they are always singing along to CDs. Just a theory tho.

If you want a better explanation of why so many pitchy singers & no one causing a big stink - get David Lugas's "Relative Pitch Supercourse". He explains why singing is always just a bit off. (mind you some singers are so accurate it's machine like scary - example Barbra Striesand).

So - can it do miracles, NOoooo. At best it can only be a guide. Sort of like drummers that use a strobe light in thier snare (triggered by a metronome) to keep time - It can only guide you. You have to be able to follow the guide. The other big down fall is stage noise. This is only a machine, it doesn't know the difference between noises coming into the mic. Percussions are the WORST thing. If the mic picks it up - TERRIBLE noises will come out of the speakers. Also - if ANY one can hear your unaffected voice (example - bandmates or front row of a quiet cafe style concert) - they will think VERY bad things about you LOL. I know the hard way.

Good news - you're already aware of pitch & pitchyness. Like AA - admitting is the biggest step. It's the ones who are cocky & proud of how accurate their pitch is (with out EVER measuring their pitch accuracy) that return the units after the 1st week telling the clerk at the music store that it's broke ("sounds all warbly - but it's not my pitch, I have perfect pitch" LOL). JUST LIKE THAT METRONOME - - LOL!!!!

I know this is a huge ramble on (excuse my LedZep pun) - but my hope is to clarify what pitch correction can AND can not do. Hope this helps. -J.


PS - for any one who says they haven't heard it being used tastefully - I HIGHLY suggest typing 'Boyce Avenue' into youtube. Very tastefully done. ALSO - I dare anyone to point out where it's used!!! (Can you hear where??)
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  #35  
Old 02-06-2013, 08:30 AM
RosesDad RosesDad is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D8YEgANLow



Please, please don't tell me that they are using one.

RD
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  #36  
Old 02-06-2013, 09:11 AM
steveyam steveyam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonbee6868 View Post
There is no silver bullet that can change awful to awesome (if there was....I'd get it LOL). It can only 'guide' you - - - here my other post (it's how I 'see' auto correct).....

To start with, I use & like TC Helicon products & its pitch correction. But that being said, I used to suggest to anyone who'll listen to try vocal effects & P/Correction out. I no longer suggest people go there. Why?? Because what I call a "silver bullet" is not what someone else calls a "silver bullet".

To clarify - TC has 2 types of pitch adjustment. One they call "Hard Tune". That effect puts the notes you're trying to hit into 1 of the 7 notes of the scale/key you are in. This is the Kanye, "Robot", Cher etc effect. Most noticeable on slid vocal notes (because it jumps as soon as you are past 1/2 way to the next scale degree. hence the robot sound). Cool as a once a night joke thing, but that's about it. The other type of pitch adjustment is the "Auto Tune". This pulls the note sung to the nearest chromatic note. This effect is the one I love. It has a adjustment on it. On a more subtle setting it still allows for sliding of note (cause remember while sliding between notes, everything is "out of tune" technically speaking). In the studio this is great. Why? Because you sing, think you sung great, leave, engineer applies as needed, you come back tomorrow & listen back & think you are awesome. Instant morale booster. Also - - - 99.999999999999% of people can't hear this type of subtle correction. Now that I know what to listen for - - I CAN NOT find a studio recording without it (in the last 30 or so years mind you). It's everywhere. Prime example - ALL the Boyce Ave videos. It's ALL over everything.

Sounds awesome right. Yes - for studio. But live is another animal all together. In the studio - never will you play 2 tracks together (one not in tune & one in tune). Why? Cause it'll sound like a guitar with 1 string out of tune. So you only ever hear 1 track at a time. BUT LIVE - you get your unaffected voice reverberating through the cavities in your head & a tuned voice coming out of the monitors. This will sound like a warble/chorusing/terrible sound. And as long as the audience can't hear your unaffected voice - they will think you're great. BUT YOU will hear terrible sounds - which translates to lower morale. Everyone I suggested a pitch correcting product to HATED it. Every one of them complained of this warble. Most had to shut off the pitch correction after the 1st couple songs. Then they came back to me & said I didn't know my head from my....... Then how is it suppose to be great?? It works for people who - when they sing with a record, are bang on & when they sing without a guiding voice are off. So the tuned voice they hear, they subconsciencly match the pitch. Our minds are wierd in that they can tune 2 of the same instrument easier. It's harder to sing a G & match it to a guitar than it is to match to another voice. That being said - It's harder to hear the warble/chorusing from a voice & guitar out from each other. Prime example - watch ANY live act (youtube hit). Most are EXTREMELY pitchy. But why doesn't anyone mind? It's hard to discern pitch between voice & instrument. Easier to voice to voice. Translation - most people don't notice. Most non musicians just hear this as - he's "smooth" or he's "edgy" or he's "rough". Mind you - as long as you're close.

Hear's a TC Helicon video showing what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-vMSp1C3-I


When I 1st started out with - I thought that I could live with this "chorusing". Man was I wrong. If you want a taste - tune your guitar perfect, now take the G & B string & detune it exactly 2 turns of the tuning key - now play a song. Not bad you say? Now play 3 hours non stop. That's what it's like.

A lot of people say - "Well this person or that person isn't pitchy". And now that I'm chasing this rabbit - I can't believe most musician's can't hear pitch problems. Goes to show the old adage that "Close enough for rock n roll" still stands.

A really good comparison is metronomes. Everybody thinks the metronome is broken when they 1st start working with one. Then after awhile they realize that their time is a bit off. But why didn't anyone except the machine catch it. Because the machine is "perfect" - we humans aren't. Close enough, often, is good enough.

This is why I LOVE pitch correction. When I 1st started with it ALL I heard was warble. I was mortified. I went to 5 DIFFERENT vocal coaches & teachers. NONE of them said I had pitchyness/pitch problems. Only the piano teacher at the local collage (friend of a friend) said I was a bit off. But even he said I was good enough & to not worry about it. But the correction (just like the metronome before it) said I was a touch out. THIS is how it was my "silver bullet". I kept at it till I next to never heard the warble. (again same as the metronome before it - keep at it till your playing hides the click because they are SO synced). Now I leave it on all the time just as a constant evaluator.

Another wierd bit - non-musician's have an easier time matching voice pitch to another voice sometimes. Why? I think it's because they are always singing along to CDs. Just a theory tho.

If you want a better explanation of why so many pitchy singers & no one causing a big stink - get David Lugas's "Relative Pitch Supercourse". He explains why singing is always just a bit off. (mind you some singers are so accurate it's machine like scary - example Barbra Striesand).

So - can it do miracles, NOoooo. At best it can only be a guide. Sort of like drummers that use a strobe light in thier snare (triggered by a metronome) to keep time - It can only guide you. You have to be able to follow the guide. The other big down fall is stage noise. This is only a machine, it doesn't know the difference between noises coming into the mic. Percussions are the WORST thing. If the mic picks it up - TERRIBLE noises will come out of the speakers. Also - if ANY one can hear your unaffected voice (example - bandmates or front row of a quiet cafe style concert) - they will think VERY bad things about you LOL. I know the hard way.

Good news - you're already aware of pitch & pitchyness. Like AA - admitting is the biggest step. It's the ones who are cocky & proud of how accurate their pitch is (with out EVER measuring their pitch accuracy) that return the units after the 1st week telling the clerk at the music store that it's broke ("sounds all warbly - but it's not my pitch, I have perfect pitch" LOL). JUST LIKE THAT METRONOME - - LOL!!!!

I know this is a huge ramble on (excuse my LedZep pun) - but my hope is to clarify what pitch correction can AND can not do. Hope this helps. -J.


PS - for any one who says they haven't heard it being used tastefully - I HIGHLY suggest typing 'Boyce Avenue' into youtube. Very tastefully done. ALSO - I dare anyone to point out where it's used!!! (Can you hear where??)
Fantastic. Amazing insight and information. Thank you.
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  #37  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:13 AM
slewis slewis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RosesDad View Post
. What I'm trying to say is this: If the tech is there, use it. But not at the expense of the integrity of the art. Respect the art. My 2 cents.
I'm not sure how to read this, but if it says technology is OK to use when it fixes fundamental shortcomings in talent -- in this case, singing -- I couldn't disagree more. And there seem to be plenty of thoughts in this thread that equate pitch correction to reverb and delay and other effects. Well those effects don't change the quality of the original input -- the voice -- like pitch correction does. I know darn well that there are many performers out there who are talented enough to sing on key and do it without a machine fixing their flaws. As I mentioned earlier, if they invent a machine that automatically put your fingers in the right places on your fretboard and lets you play all the right notes, are you now a guitar player? And would you expect people to hear you play and have any respect for you as a guitarist? Sorry, the ability of the human voice to sing well isn't so low that we need machines to help so some of us are bearable enough to be heard. It's called talent, and we all have it but to widely varying degrees. I'm just not interested in hearing people singing through machines that make up for talent. There's enough artifice in the world already.
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  #38  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:08 PM
GibbyPrague GibbyPrague is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
HI Jeff...

Have you seen this one? (only 1:09) - CLiCK

Seemed appropriate to the the discussion...


Awesome Larry !
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  #39  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:23 PM
iamtaylor iamtaylor is offline
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That is funny - I hadn't seen that I - I must have blown right by that link.
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  #40  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:53 PM
RosesDad RosesDad is offline
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Mr slewis,

You and I are in complete agreement. The keyword in my statement is 'integrity'. Art is by its very nature subject to a vast spectrum of interpretations. Integrity is much more closely defined. An out of tune guitar, ridiculous levels of effects for no other reason than their use, lack of rythym or a voice out of tune disrespect the integrity of the art, not the art itself.

RD
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  #41  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 PM
Rodger Rodger is offline
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Originally Posted by RosesDad View Post
Mr slewis,

You and I are in complete agreement. The keyword in my statement is 'integrity'. Art is by its very nature subject to a vast spectrum of interpretations. Integrity is much more closely defined. An out of tune guitar, ridiculous levels of effects for no other reason than their use, lack of rythym or a voice out of tune disrespect the integrity of the art, not the art itself.

RD
Interesting point RosesDad. You reminded me in a way of the artist Johannes Vermeer (Girl With the Pearl Earing). He wasn't really famous in his own time, like many artists. It is thought that he used a camera obscura - a device that displayed the image he wanted to paint on his canvas emphasizing certain colors... kinda like painting by numbers. Many think use of such devices degrades the integrity of the artist, but the art itself remains great (at least IMO). His painting ''Young Woman Seated at the Virginal" sold for $30 Million in 2004, so others think his art is good regardless of how he created it.

So, if a great recording uses Autotune, does it make it any less a great recording? Not for me to say.
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  #42  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
HI Jeff...Have you seen this one? (only 1:09) - CLiCK
Seemed appropriate to the the discussion...
LOL one of the best posts I've seen on AGF to date
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  #43  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:26 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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I'm just glad you all do not play turntables.
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  #44  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:41 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slewis View Post
...if they invent a machine that automatically put your fingers in the right places on your fretboard and lets you play all the right notes, are you now a guitar player?....
wait, i thought that's what frets did - get you the next higher in-tune note. it's like built in auto-tune. and just like auto-tune, if you are off by more than one semitone, it doesn't work.

do you respect any guitarists who don't tune by ear and rely on an electronic tuner?

i'm not saying that it's exactly the same thing, but there is an analogy there.
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  #45  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:09 PM
slewis slewis is offline
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Sorry, but that might be the weakest analogy I've ever heard in my life. Really?

I guess you're OK, then, with whatever machine they eventually come up with that wires to your brain and makes your finger go to the right notes. Wow.
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