ES2 System electronic hum vs ES1??? Advice needed

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The Taylor guy said there was one in the battery box on the board. !?!?

Be that as it may... You heard the hum in the recording. I didn't make it up. But like magic, it went away. Did my gig on Friday and no hum. Ok. I'll take no hum. So perplexing. Maybe it was the Duracell battery that came installed with the guitar that I popped out and popped back in?

BTW... Another oddity is that Taylor's battey cartridge (holder) size. I'm going to have to post that one separately.

The battery box is notoriously finicky, and you need to be careful which brand of 9v battery you use - I used a non-Duracell brand (I forget which) and it cracked the end of the box where the battery terminals poke out. Taylor were supposed to change it when I upgraded to ES2 but I forgot to remind them. It works fine still so I will sort it when I am at a Taylor dealer that has or can get some spare parts.

Back to the original problem: I upgraded to ES2 after having ES1.1 and ES1.3 in my 414. The magnetic electric guitar character of the original ES drove me crazy, especially as I play with capo a lot and use the higher frets often even without a capo.

The new ES2 sounds SO much more natural to my ears, and even on some rough recordings we've done it sounds much more natural, more like a microphone then almost any other pickup system (apart from those with a mic as part of the system!). However, plugging the guitar directly into an amplified speaker or even via a preamp (Tonebone Pz-pre) there was a great deal of ground loop hum, unbearable. Then I tried a grounded outlet in my apartment and the problem disappeared.

I have since had all the power outlets and lighting fixtures in my apartment grounded...

[GazzaPax]

So, I have an older Taylor 310CE (no hum) and a Taylor K16 (couple of years old) which does hum. Going into a spectacularly beautiful AER compact 60-3. When plugged in, if I touch the guitar cable where it -lugs into the amp, the hum diminishes. I assumed it’s an earthing prob. But, can’t be the amp cos only one guitar affected.

I took the entire setup, with both guitars and amp and cables to a guitar luthier, who is a world class guitar maker. We could not recreate the hum at his workshop in either guitar, and he checked out the K16 thoroughly, incl electrically.

Brought everything home, very disappointed, as I just want the problem identified and fixed. Guess what...plugged in, and prob still there on the k16. It must, in my opinion, be something external, like electric lights, network router, WiFi, iPhone, iPad, iMac, extractor fan.... I dunno !

Are there any electronics buffs who might be able to comment on how an ES2 system might be able to pick up some interference that my 20 year old 310CE is immune to?

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by GazzaPax

So, I have an older Taylor 310CE (no hum) and a Taylor K16 (couple of years old) which does hum. Going into a spectacularly beautiful AER compact 60-3. When plugged in, if I touch the guitar cable where it -lugs into the amp, the hum diminishes. I assumed it’s an earthing prob. But, can’t be the amp cos only one guitar affected.

I took the entire setup, with both guitars and amp and cables to a guitar luthier, who is a world class guitar maker. We could not recreate the hum at his workshop in either guitar, and he checked out the K16 thoroughly, incl electrically.

Brought everything home, very disappointed, as I just want the problem identified and fixed. Guess what...plugged in, and prob still there on the k16. It must, in my opinion, be something external, like electric lights, network router, WiFi, iPhone, iPad, iMac, extractor fan.... I dunno !

Are there any electronics buffs who might be able to comment on how an ES2 system might be able to pick up some interference that my 20 year old 310CE is immune to?

I guess the bad news is you've probably have to live with it. All sorts of shielding kits are sold for Fender Strats with real single coil pickups that help but will never eliminate hum from the right noise source. Some aspect of your ES-2 must be less well shielded than your older ES-1. Possibly the latest ES-2 PCB is worth trying and you might get one out of Taylor for free if you ask.

I've got a friend whose got some sort of noise source at his house that gets into his P90 Casino. I actually tried to take the guitar around the house to find the source. I seemed to isolate it to the crawl space underneath his living room. But when I investigated the crawl space I could not find anything that would stand out as the likely source.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by GazzaPax

So, I have an older Taylor 310CE (no hum) and a Taylor K16 (couple of years old) which does hum. Going into a spectacularly beautiful AER compact 60-3. When plugged in, if I touch the guitar cable where it -lugs into the amp, the hum diminishes. I assumed it’s an earthing prob. But, can’t be the amp cos only one guitar affected.

I took the entire setup, with both guitars and amp and cables to a guitar luthier, who is a world class guitar maker. We could not recreate the hum at his workshop in either guitar, and he checked out the K16 thoroughly, incl electrically.

Brought everything home, very disappointed, as I just want the problem identified and fixed. Guess what...plugged in, and prob still there on the k16. It must, in my opinion, be something external, like electric lights, network router, WiFi, iPhone, iPad, iMac, extractor fan.... I dunno !

Are there any electronics buffs who might be able to comment on how an ES2 system might be able to pick up some interference that my 20 year old 310CE is immune to?

See my earlier post - I don’t know how your house is wired but if you are using an ungrounded outlet it might be as simple as that.

Try connecting the amp to a socket in your kitchen (they should be grounded) or use an extension lead connected to a grounded outlet. Bear in mind that it isn’t a good idea to run a grounded cable from a grounded outlet into a room where the outlets are not grounded (for reasons I’m not really qualified to go into detail about). By all means try it to eliminate the variables but don’t rely on it.

[MikeBmusic]

YEs, it does sound like an environment issue. My PA hooked up at a farmers market last year (with a long LONG extension cord) had a high pitched hum/whine, very faint. Never had that noise anywhere else.

[Ric4001]

Reviving this older thread with the same issue. I have 3 Taylors with Expression v1.2 or 1.3. I can plug those into any device and get no hum. I have one Taylor with ES2 (2018 model) and I can plug that guitar only into grounded devices because I otherwise get a very loud ground hum. So I can't plug my ES2 directly into my Yamaha mixer, my Tascam 24SD, my Motu 624 interlace or my VoiceLive 3 because all of them have 2-prong plugs that go into the AC outlet. I tried a hum eliminator pedal between the guitar and the device, but it made no difference. But if I plug the guitar first into a grounded device (like a preamp, a mixer, etc. that has a 3 prong plug in to the AC outlet), and then plug that into the Tascam, Motu, Yamaha or Voicelive, there's no hum. So basically the ES2 MUST be plugged into an earth grounded device or else there is a very loud hum. Is this just a design limitation of the ES2 system, or does my ES2 guitar have a bad preamp?

[James May]

Originally Posted by Ric4001

Reviving this older thread with the same issue. I have 3 Taylors with Expression v1.2 or 1.3. I can plug those into any device and get no hum. I have one Taylor with ES2 (2018 model) and I can plug that guitar only into grounded devices because I otherwise get a very loud ground hum. So I can't plug my ES2 directly into my Yamaha mixer, my Tascam 24SD, my Motu 624 interlace or my VoiceLive 3 because all of them have 2-prong plugs that go into the AC outlet. I tried a hum eliminator pedal between the guitar and the device, but it made no difference. But if I plug the guitar first into a grounded device (like a preamp, a mixer, etc. that has a 3 prong plug in to the AC outlet), and then plug that into the Tascam, Motu, Yamaha or Voicelive, there's no hum. So basically the ES2 MUST be plugged into an earth grounded device or else there is a very loud hum. Is this just a design limitation of the ES2 system, or does my ES2 guitar have a bad preamp?

What you are describing is a well known electrical phenomenon whereby a high impedance pickup system is sensitive to stray power line hum and buzz fields including the common mode noise generated by the floating switch-mode power supply. Connect it to ground and the problem goes away.

If not connected to an earth grounded system, there is little you can do. I'm guessing that if you touch the line cord shell/shield, the problem hum/buzz level goes down, correct?

You might call this an unintended consequence of equipment manufactures relying on AC power supplies with only 2-prong connections to the power line. They have little choice. A switch mode power supply with a floating 2-prong connection is significantly cheaper to get safety approvals for. So to be competitive, they take the shortcut. Some wall wart supplies are worse than others.

We have the same issue with ToneDexter unless it is connected to a grounded system.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by James May

What you are describing is a well known electrical phenomenon whereby a high impedance pickup system is sensitive to stray power line hum and buzz fields including the common mode noise generated by the floating switch-mode power supply. Connect it to ground and the problem goes away.

If not connected to an earth grounded system, there is little you can do. I'm guessing that if you touch the line cord shell/shield, the problem hum/buzz level goes down, correct?

You might call this an unintended consequence of equipment manufactures relying on AC power supplies with only 2-prong connections to the power line. They have little choice. A switch mode power supply with a floating 2-prong connection is significantly cheaper to get safety approvals for. So to be competitive, they take the shortcut. Some wall wart supplies are worse than others.

We have the same issue with ToneDexter unless it is connected to a grounded system.

I had the same issue with my ES2; the result was that I got the entire apartment grounded, not just the kitchen!

Besides, who wants to live in an apartment or house these days with ungrounded power outlets…? Or even more, a venue with ungrounded power…?

[Ric4001]

Originally Posted by James May

What you are describing is a well known electrical phenomenon whereby a high impedance pickup system is sensitive to stray power line hum and buzz fields including the common mode noise generated by the floating switch-mode power supply. Connect it to ground and the problem goes away.

If not connected to an earth grounded system, there is little you can do. I'm guessing that if you touch the line cord shell/shield, the problem hum/buzz level goes down, correct?

You might call this an unintended consequence of equipment manufactures relying on AC power supplies with only 2-prong connections to the power line. They have little choice. A switch mode power supply with a floating 2-prong connection is significantly cheaper to get safety approvals for. So to be competitive, they take the shortcut. Some wall wart supplies are worse than others.

We have the same issue with ToneDexter unless it is connected to a grounded system.

Thanks. The hum does go away when I touch the shield of the guitar cord. The strange thing is that none of my 3 Taylors with the expression 1 system have this issue. I know the wiring or environment in my house is "dirty" due to light dimmers and LED light bulbs everywhere -- various dynamic & ribbon microphones and single coil electric guitars pick up this interference. I'm just surprised the expression 2 system is so sensitive to this while the expression 1 system has no issue. I was going to convert my expression 1 guitars to expression 2 because I do think 2 sounds more acoustic, but I'm going to abandon that plan now.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Ric4001

Thanks. The hum does go away when I touch the shield of the guitar cord. The strange thing is that none of my 3 Taylors with the expression 1 system have this issue. I know the wiring or environment in my house is "dirty" due to light dimmers and LED light bulbs everywhere -- various dynamic & ribbon microphones and single coil electric guitars pick up this interference. I'm just surprised the expression 2 system is so sensitive to this while the expression 1 system has no issue. I was going to convert my expression 1 guitars to expression 2 because I do think 2 sounds more acoustic, but I'm going to abandon that plan now.

As per my post above, you could also ground all your outlets and lighting fittings in your house and not only make all your audio equipment less noisy but your house safer!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Ric4001

Reviving this older thread with the same issue. I have 3 Taylors with Expression v1.2 or 1.3. I can plug those into any device and get no hum. I have one Taylor with ES2 (2018 model) and I can plug that guitar only into grounded devices because I otherwise get a very loud ground hum. So I can't plug my ES2 directly into my Yamaha mixer, my Tascam 24SD, my Motu 624 interlace or my VoiceLive 3 because all of them have 2-prong plugs that go into the AC outlet. I tried a hum eliminator pedal between the guitar and the device, but it made no difference. But if I plug the guitar first into a grounded device (like a preamp, a mixer, etc. that has a 3 prong plug in to the AC outlet), and then plug that into the Tascam, Motu, Yamaha or Voicelive, there's no hum. So basically the ES2 MUST be plugged into an earth grounded device or else there is a very loud hum. Is this just a design limitation of the ES2 system, or does my ES2 guitar have a bad preamp?

There have been some older topics posted here on AGF about Taylor systems that had excessive induced AC hum problems. A few of those topics related that some of Taylor's systems had problems with how they were internally assembled and Taylor supplied a shielding lead that greatly reduced the hum problem.

It's worth a call to Taylor with specifics about any ES system that has this problem along with model and serial number of the instrument. At least you eliminate that as a possible cause of the problem.

[Ric4001]

Originally Posted by pieterh

As per my post above, you could also ground all your outlets and lighting fittings in your house and not only make all your audio equipment less noisy but your house safer!

Thanks. My house is only 28 years old. All outlets and lighting figures are grounded. But if I'm plugging into a device (recorder, interface, etc.) that has only a 2-prong cord, then I'm not coming into contact with the house grounding. That's when the problem occurs. If I plug into a device that has a 3-prong cord and thus is in contact with the house ground, there is no hum.

[Ric4001]

I spoke to Taylor customer support. They were very helpful.

They confirmed that the ES1 guitars are grounded to the plate underneath the bridge, which touch the strings. Those guitars had the fuse to protect you if there was a short in the amplifier and you touched the strings.

The ES2 guitars are not internally grounded. There is no metal plate underneath the bridge. So they confirmed that, if you plug an ES2 guitar into a device that itself is not grounded (i.e., one that has only 2 prongs on its power supply and lacks the 3rd prong to ground -- like an amplifier or digital recorder that uses a 2 prong wall wart power supply), you are potentially going to get hum because there is no contact to the house ground and no contact to you the player as a ground. If you do plug in to such a device and touch the metal of the guitar cord, you are internally grounding the device just like the ES1 guitars. If you plug into a device that itself is earth grounded (i.e. has a 3 prong power supply cord), then the guitar is grounded via that device and you get no hum.

So everything on this guitar is functioning as intended. Thanks for all of the helpful comments.

[James May]

That makes sense. I don't know if there is enough room for it with the ES2 system, but if so you could consider having one of these installed:

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tool...hoC_sMQAvD_BwE

It would ground your strings and eliminate the problem. I've used this device myself so I can recommend it. It does seem rather expensive though.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Ric4001

Thanks. My house is only 28 years old. All outlets and lighting figures are grounded. But if I'm plugging into a device (recorder, interface, etc.) that has only a 2-prong cord, then I'm not coming into contact with the house grounding. That's when the problem occurs. If I plug into a device that has a 3-prong cord and thus is in contact with the house ground, there is no hum.

Fair enough, thanks for clearing that up!

Hope you can find a solution you can live with; I am really impressed with the ES2’s performance and love using it live.

That said, I almost always plug mine into a Tonebone Pz-Pre and that is powered by a two-prong power supply and yet I don’t get the ground hum. On the other hand there is a ground lift on the Pz-pre, maybe that’s why I’m not getting the hum. I’ll check it out in the next few days…