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  #16  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:39 AM
Malcolm Kindnes Malcolm Kindnes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmcr View Post
Marketing.
Absolutely, these words mean very little in reality.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2019, 05:30 AM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
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Originally Posted by frankmcr View Post
Marketing.
Bingo. They're just buzzwords. They wouldn't be able to churn them out in significant numbers if they were whittling out bridges and necks. Odds are the human element is more in putting the machined pieces together.
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2019, 05:41 AM
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Forgetting the nomenclature (handmade or handcrafted), I think about artisans who respond to the properties of wood when selecting sets, thicknessing tops, backs, sides or bracing the guitar vs. those that build to target dimensions based on “average” wood properties.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2019, 06:22 AM
tomiv9 tomiv9 is offline
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Hand = Hand
Made = Crafted

Therefore using math, handmade = handcrafted.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2019, 06:26 AM
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To my mind, the difference is that crafted infers an expression of quality. Crafting requires special skill and care. Being “made” does not. It is simply making something. In the case of guitar building it smells like promotional hype.
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  #21  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:03 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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It reminds me of going to a grocery store and seeing the word "homemade" on food neatly packaged in cellophane. I think it must mean that a human's hand touched it somewhere in the manufacturing process.

To me, "hand made" implies a bit more personal care than "hand crafted", but neither has much meaning, being defined however the maker wants. If they use the word "entirely" before the rest, I'd have more confidence that human hands had a greater share of the work that went into it.
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:09 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Eastman was brought up in the OP.
His supposition about Eastman is errroneous unless there has been a recent change.
From what I am able to gather in conversations with several folks very close to the company, Eastman is still doing more work with hands and rudimentary hand tools than any other "production" guitar builder. One of these folks is Ted at L.A. Guitars.
You can believe that or not but for folks to make statements to the contrary is nothing more than speculation based on nothing.
I'm not convinced Eastman uses any automated equipment at all. The last I knew they were still making the necks by hand, not CNC machines as was suggested, using basic hand tools. Eastman is still hand-spraying the finishes on the bodies.
If anyone can offer anything contrary to this, I'm willing to listen, but not unless you can at least provide some form of documentation... even if its just a conversation you had with an Eastman person.
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:36 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
If they use the word "entirely" before the rest, I'd have more confidence that human hands had a greater share of the work that went into it.
Sort of like "real mother of pearl"? Not many advertise "fake mother of pearl". Something is either what it is claimed or it is not: claiming something to be something it is not is often the purpose of marketing.

If something is "handmade", it is "handmade": "entirely handmade" is superfluous. No one advertises "partially handmade". Nearly nothing in today's world is "entirely handmade", that is, made without the assistance of some machinery along the way.

I spent a few weeks learning to make furniture without any power tools or sandpaper: we used only handsaws, planes and chisels. However, we didn't fell our own trees with axes or handsaws and split our own wood with a froe: it was cut by chainsaw, likely, milled into lumber on a machine and transported to us using a machine prior to our touching it. The furniture we made was designed on a computer using CAD software. The finish we applied, linseed oil, was made using machines. Where does one draw the line in the "supply chain" to claim something was "handmade"?

Eastman, from the previous post, uses spray equipment - a compressor or turbine to deliver compressed air - rather than brushes or rags. Is that "handmade" since it uses a machine to deliver the finish to the surface of the work? Yes, a human directs the machine (sprayed finish). Is that enough to say it is "handmade"? A human directs a bulldozer: is work done with a bulldozer "handmade"? The term means whatever you want it to mean, applied however you want to apply it, the purpose of which is to invoke some Old World mystique of "quality".

For discussion sake, suppose Eastman guitars were 100% made by machine. If the instrument was exactly the same quality, would it matter if it was made with only 50% machinery-assisted? How about 25%? How about 10%? If the instrument is "the same" quality, regardless of how it was made, does it matter how it was made? (The discussion of human labour/livelihood being replaced/displaced by machines, as a social issue, is a different, longer discussion.)
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  #24  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:48 AM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
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Exactly, Charles. It's all semantics meant to create a psychological impression to the consumer. That's marketing.

Here's an example to deepen the debate: for years Larrivee has said that their guitars are "hand fitted" but many have said that they are "boutique quality on a budget." There are videos on the Youtubes about how they use CNC to carve their necks but when it comes time to put the neck on the body the human element comes into play and hand tools are used to adjust the fit.

I wouldn't be surprised that a similar process is followed by Eastman.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:00 AM
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
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Homemade







Handcrafted



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  #26  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:14 AM
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home made is something you eat and handcrafted is something you dont or shouldnt if you are normal.
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:35 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil K Walk View Post
Here's an example to deepen the debate: for years Larrivee has said that their guitars are "hand fitted" but many have said that they are "boutique quality on a budget." There are videos on the Youtubes about how they use CNC to carve their necks but when it comes time to put the neck on the body the human element comes into play and hand tools are used to adjust the fit.
How many new, out-of-the-box Larrivee guitars need a neck reset? How many new, out-of-the-box Martin guitars need a neck reset? (This is a quality of manufacturing issue: it has nothing to do with who's guitars you like better.)

"Quality" is achieved by knowing when to use a machine and when to do something by hand. That is, some things machines do better; some things are better done by hand/handtools. Knowing which is which and applying that knowledge to one's manufacturing is key.
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:30 AM
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Ludere Ludere is offline
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Default “Handcrafted” vs. “Handmade”

I think the real answer to the OPs question has already been stated a number of times here.
While in some industries, a specific term equates to a specific attribute or characteristic, I think the distinction between these two lacks that sort of "hard" definition.
IMHO, Handcrafted vs. Handmade is pretty much all marketing and perspective ...

case in point ...

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Last edited by Ludere; 08-26-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:12 AM
erhino41 erhino41 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
Eastman was brought up in the OP.
His supposition about Eastman is errroneous unless there has been a recent change.
From what I am able to gather in conversations with several folks very close to the company, Eastman is still doing more work with hands and rudimentary hand tools than any other "production" guitar builder. One of these folks is Ted at L.A. Guitars.
You can believe that or not but for folks to make statements to the contrary is nothing more than speculation based on nothing.
I'm not convinced Eastman uses any automated equipment at all. The last I knew they were still making the necks by hand, not CNC machines as was suggested, using basic hand tools. Eastman is still hand-spraying the finishes on the bodies.
If anyone can offer anything contrary to this, I'm willing to listen, but not unless you can at least provide some form of documentation... even if its just a conversation you had with an Eastman person.
I was about to make the same reply.
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozarkpicker View Post
What is the difference in the terms “Handmade” & “ Handcfafted” when referring to how a particular manufacturers guitars are made. I am a bit confused, because I recently heard a member here refer to Eastman acoustic guitars as being “Handcrafted”, when I’m pretty sure they are machine-made for the very most part...to keep prices lower, I suspect. But, that term would suggest they are not.

I have always thought of guitars like Bourgeois, Collings or Thompson being “Handmade”, with virtually no machinery used to build their instruments, and therefore they are made in far lower numbers than even those made by Martin, Gibson or Taylor...which I would consider more “Handcrafted” than “Handmade”.

Will someone smarter than I give a shot at this?
Hi Ozark Picker

I understand the confusion. There is no 'official' language to differentiate between manufactured (Martin, Gibson, Taylor), from small factory (SantaCruz, Froggy Bottom, Collings) or solo builders (Olson, Bashkin, Lowden) and small team builders…(Somogyi has apprentices, McKnight…others' hands touch guitars during builds, but Tim does the main parts and voicing, Ryan…two man builds).

I've left out a lot of major names in the solo category. There are a bunch of really great solo builders and small team builders these days.

I offer this link to a short paper by Ervin Somogyi who is generally recognized as one of the greatest solo builders, and small team builders (different than small factory builders) of the 20th-21st century to date. He uses apprentices, and turns out world class (orchestral quality) guitars. He attempts to describe manufactured versus solo built (hand built). There are a lot of grades/shades of the concept of building. Every one of them I know of uses plenty of machinery. The differences in build are not caused by the machinery, but by the design and amount of customizing of tone.

Difference Between Handmade and Factory Made Guitars - CliCk

He also did a Luthier-on-Luthier podcast episode with Michael Bashkin talking about his history as a builder which is fascinating. It's available on the major podcast hosts.

One of the things Michael Bashkin explained to me when he was building my guitar in 2005 was the goal of manufacturers is that the next model will be as good as the last model and the next model following that model will be the same.

Michael's goal is that his NEXT guitar will be even better than his last guitar…continuing on to his following instruments.

There is a place for both styles (and all who fall in between). I own and play both manufactured and solo built instruments. My main guitar is solo build, but my factory built Voyage-Air is the one which travels with us in the Car, RV, plane etc.

My 1993 American Strat Plus is a custom manufactured guitar. My Indian made Telecaster which we changed pickups & electronics in is a customized inexpensive manufactured guitar. Both sound great.

One last point…I asked Michael Bashkin when I commissioned my guitar from him "Does this come with a lifetime guarantee?" and he said, "Yes, as long as I'm alive and building guitars." That's pretty much true of any solo builder.

Hope this adds to the discussion…



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Last edited by ljguitar; 08-26-2019 at 11:43 AM. Reason: grammar
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