So much Rosewood, so much Spruce. Is there a difference?

[Rev Roy]

If you can hear the difference it’s there. If not, it’s not. For you. Follow your ears. They are the only ones that really matter...

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Rev Roy

If you can hear the difference it’s there. If not, it’s not. For you. Follow your ears. They are the only ones that really matter...

Problem is Rev...lotsa folks that think they are following their ears are really following their eyes, and what they've read on the guitar forums that is now burned into their subconscious minds.

That is why having the chance to participate in a really well controlled blind listening test is such a great thing to take part in if anyone ever has the chance to. It REALLY opens your eyes...and ears!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Rev Roy]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Problem is Rev...lotsa folks that think they are following their ears are really following their eyes, and what they've read on the guitar forums that is now burned into their subconscious minds.

That is why having the chance to participate in a really well controlled blind listening test is such a great thing to take part in if anyone ever has the chance to. It REALLY opens your eyes...and ears!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Completely agree. And nothing I said conflicts with that. So I’ll say it again: Follow your ears...not the headstock name, chatty internet, etc. If it sounds right to you it’s right for you.

[rokdog49]

At this point in my life, it’s minutiae to me...splitting hairs etc.
Too many variables anyway.

[Br1ck]

This basic concept could apply to fly rods or golf clubs, or motorcycle tires. The more your experience the more understanding you have of the subtleties, the more you can hear differences. But can anyone tell species of wood blindfolded with any certainty? I doubt it. There is a great deal of overlap. Can you say to someone you want a loud, forward sounding guitar, and get pointed to something that would do what you want? Yes. But it might not fit your preconceptions.

[mikealpine]

Yes there are differences. But there are differences in guitars built from the same wood, by the same builder. And there are difference between guitars built from the same wood by different builders. It's a slippery slope that leads to a very deep rabbit hole.

[Rmccamey]

Part of my confusion is that many builders list upcharges for Sitka, Adi, Alpine, German and several others Spruce varieties. The same for different Rosewood varieties on b&s. What I'm reading is there is little to no tonal differences between the species of Spruce or RW used, so what is driving the market for someone to pay $400 more for Adi than Sitka if they sound the same? One luthier charges $1500 more for Brazilian RW than Indian RW and $500 more for Honduran RW. I agree the b&s contributes some tonal flavor to the guitar, but if there is little to no tonal difference between species, and if the b&s is providing only a small amount of the guitar tone to begin with, what is driving the market for these kinds of upcharges if Brazilian, Honduran, and Indian RW all sound the same?

Originally Posted by Br1ck

This basic concept could apply to fly rods or golf clubs, or motorcycle tires. The more your experience the more understanding you have of the subtleties, the more you can hear differences. But can anyone tell species of wood blindfolded with any certainty? I doubt it. There is a great deal of overlap. Can you say to someone you want a loud, forward sounding guitar, and get pointed to something that would do what you want? Yes. But it might not fit your preconceptions.

[wisedennis]

Build method, builder , and the individual differences of the wood

[Alan Carruth]

Rmccamey asked:
"... but if there is little to no tonal difference between species, and if the b&s is providing only a small amount of the guitar tone to begin with, what is driving the market for these kinds of upcharges if Brazilian, Honduran, and Indian RW all sound the same?"

Belief.

I don't think there are too many makers who would say that there is 'no' tonal difference between the different rosewoods; you do have to work a bit differently with them to get similar results. Generally, but not always, BRW is denser and has lower damping than IRW, both of which can (or, at least should) affect the sound of the guitar. It's not always possible to fully compensate for these differences. With a design that's as well optimized as the guitar over centuries of effort, small differences can be important.

Confirmation bias is at least as much a factor as any of the real differences, though. We've all been told for all of our lives that some woods are better than others, and that's what we tend to hear, no matter what the reality of the case is. This is what the blind tests are telling us. In the Leonardo Project they found that in blind tests players and listeners expressed no preference for any B&S wood, but when they know what the wood is they prefer the rosewood instruments by about 2:1, iirc. Same ears, same guitars, different perceptions: they're listening with their eyes and biases.

When you've had a life time to build up a bias like that there's almost nothing any outside actor can do that can erase it. In one marketing book ("Positioning") the authors point out that your image of Coca Cola has been built by a life time of experience, including much more than just advertisement. There is not enough money in the world to mount an advertising campaign that would cancel that out if somebody wanted to displace Coke from #1 with a new brand. OTOH, the Coca Cola bottling company could wipe that advantage out fairly quickly if they messed up enough, say with an ill-advised change in the formula.

When there's a whole market built around that bias, there's a lot of incentive to maintain it. Violin dealers work on commission, so there's a lot of pressure to maintain the high valuations of some of the Old Italian names. Recent testing, which suggests that there may, in fact, be no real difference is met by vehement denials by the establishment. Guitar valuations are not as astronomical, but there is a similar incentive structure in the guitar world.

It's easy, and seems all too typical these days, to fall into conspiracy theories regarding this stuff. The high market share of Coca Cola, and the high market prices for Strad violins or pre-war Martin guitars, are not set or maintained by some sinister cabal, ruthlessly exploiting consumers. We're all part of it; that's why it's so powerful. All anybody has to do to keep it going is just go with the flow.

So there you go. The B&S wood does make a bit of difference, and to some folks that's enough to justify the investment. Alternatives that may be 'nearly as good' are worth less on the used market, and don't cost all that much less up front, so there's not much of an incentive to back them. Over time, as the supplies of rosewood dwindle, and the environmental costs of the tropicals become more apparent, maybe this will change, but probably not. I suspect there will always be a small and very 'high end' market for those woods, and the rest of us will continue to apologize for materials that are, in fact, no worse, and may be even better. Assuming, of course, the guitar as we know it doesn't go the way of the lute.

[mercy]

I dont care what anybody says, there is a difference but not all builders can pull the potential out of the difference. A builder cannot make a mahogany guitar sound like a rosewood guitar but the difference between two rosewood guitars can be negligible depending on the builder or the two different guitars. Some rosewoods have more potential than others but not all builders can pull out that potential. If Alan built a guitar out of Braz and on of EIR they would sound similar but not exactly the same. Do you want that little more that Braz can give or is your ear satisfied with EIR? Most people hear withe their eyes but Ive been playing guitar for 60 some years and my ears are very developed so I can hear differences and flash and polish mean nothing to me. A guitar could look like the side of a barn and I could still hear if it was a gem or not. What Im saying is that most people cant hear the differences but some can.