the ultimate guitar pickup -- I'm not kidding

[EarlG]

Is there a reason you need to record with an internal mic?

Mostly for live recordings, though a "reliable" blend in the studio can be interesting.

[Doug Young]

Wow, well, I'll be interested in your results. Have you tried simply sticking a KM184 inside the guitar to see how it sounds?

[EarlG]

Have you tried simply sticking a KM184 inside the guitar to see how it sounds?

Not yet, but I've tried other mics and the results were pretty cool!

I've never heard of anyone doing that

Goes to show how desperate I am :-)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EarlG

Not yet, but I've tried other mics and the results were pretty cool!


Goes to show how desperate I am :-)

Well, keep us posted. I have to admit, I suspect there's a reason I've never heard of anyone doing this before. But it never hurts to try to break new ground. There are solutions that people use, like the H-Clamp, that let you put any mic you want on the outside of the guitar, which at least gets the mic where it was designed to go.

Still surprised by your objection to the noise. Even recording a live show, you're going to pick up other noise, even with an internal mic, that I would expect would make any mic self noise a moot issue, unless you're performing in an empty theatre and don't breathe :-) Lots of live performances use the DPA 4061s, broadway shows, for example, and many are recorded. They used them for Peter Gabriel's recent tour, and I'm sure that was all recorded and may show up on a live album some day. I assume if it's good enough for them, it's adequate for me!

[EarlG]

Lots of live performances use the DPA 4061s

No doubt the 4061 works fine in the right situations. It handles high SPLs, it's good for isolation and fits into tight spaces, but otherwise in recording terms the 4061 is a "poor engineer's" choice. Most remote studios don't have 100 4015s on hand and would rather just place the violins far back in the mix Of course, it's much more critical recording a solo instrument. Anyone with the means to do better will not record a solo acoustic guitar in the studio with two 4061s out front, so in my case I'd rather not do that live. I prefer a pickup system that's good enough for both purposes. Baggs certainly are, though they aren't what I'm looking for. To me it's like shooting in RAW: you never know when you're going to get a good picture, but you sure are happy when that moment arrives and you've captured it in high quality.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EarlG

No doubt the 4061 works fine in the right situations. It handles high SPLs, it's good for isolation and fits into tight spaces, but otherwise in recording terms the 4061 is a "poor engineer's" choice.

Sure, but understand that what people are talking about here is using something like this instead of a $50 mic that typically is used as a pickup mic. There are other options, the AKG 416 is often recommended, Laurence Juber uses a $199 Audix, and so on. These work great for live use, which is what this whole discussion is about. I don't use 4061's for studio recording. Usually I use Brauner VM1s these days. If you can afford to use multi-thousand $ studio mics live, and perform in settings where those will work, you're really not performing in the situations 99.99% of people here are in. For people who want a "pickup" where they can plug into an amp or a simple preamp, a KM184 isn't going to be their first choice solution.

[EarlG]

I know I'm pushing the boundaries, but after all we're discussing "the ultimate guitar pickup." Incidentally, I had a few 416s and didn't like them on guitar. But in retrospect with some tweaking they might have worked better. Certainly in the mini mic range the DPA is the clear choice. The Audix is even noisier (I just wanted to rub that in

With regard to those who aren't looking to spend $1,000 or more on a pickup system, I think they should seriously consider quality as well. But if noise isn't of primary importance, then I agree that DPA is the solution. But I wouldn't say it's the ultimate.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EarlG

I know I'm pushing the boundaries, but after all we're discussing "the ultimate guitar pickup."

I don't think I'd call a KM184 a "pickup" :-) But using studio mics for live performance is certainly an option for some people in some settings. They don't need to be inside the guitar, and they'll sound better if they're not.

I'm not the one calling the K&K+DPA setup the "ultimate" incidently, it's a nice setup that's working well for me, but it would be terrible for others. For some people the "ultimate" might be a Fishman UST, or a Sunrise mag, or a.... it's all in finding the right tool for the job. Sometimes pricier and more elaborate isn't better.

Let us know how the Km184 works for you, I'll be interested in how it's mounted, etc.

[EarlG]

Doug, I'm surprised that you haven't heard of the 184 pickup from Neumann I doubt Neumann has either Thanks for your valuable input. I'll publish my results when they're available.

Edit: actually, I have already discussed my idea with Martin Schneider. Here hoping...

[goldhedge]

Just curious - nice thread btw! - would this do the same thing as suggested in the OP thread?

http://www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Soun...wMic-P409.aspx

or this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-K-Sound-Tr...#ht_3623wt_844

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by goldhedge

Just curious - nice thread btw! - would this do the same thing as suggested in the OP thread?

http://www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Soun...wMic-P409.aspx

This system has a UST+SBT+Mic, plus an onboard preamp and three band EQ for each pickup. The whole system costs about the same as the DPA mic alone, for what that's worth. It could be a good system for some people, but I tried it and didn't feel like the UST or the preamp added anything. The EQ controls are very inconvenient to adjust down inside the guitar. Lots of people use the K&K+Silver Bullet mic sucessfully, what the original poster was reporting on was a setup I'm using where I just have an upgraded mic. The closest thing from K&K to what we're talking about would just be the K&K+Silver bullet, which is a perfectly fine setup.

That would be this (tho you can use other preamps as well)

http://www.kksound.com/trinitymini.html

[Mingo Sanders]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

There was talk about using a transistor in the mic channel. Don't know what that's about but maybe if someone would explain...

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No idea what the transistor is about.

I'm late to the party, but in the spirit of clarity, I think the "transistor" question may have been referring to the subject of resistors, i.e., 1.8 ohm vs. 1.8k ohm vs. 10k ohm.

[Klef]

I have a guitar with a fishman mic (the older natural matrix setup) and I have now installed a K&K plus DPA 4061 mic in another guitar and the mic difference to my ears is simply night and day different. I tend to agree with Doug that the quality of the mic matters.

[goldhedge]

I have a Martin D18 with a Thinline pickup. It's always been "ducky" sounding.

I replaced it with the D-Tar wavelength $100 online (musicians friend) and got a used DPA 4060 head-worn mic (used for stage actors) $155 off ebay (Doug used the 4061). Total cost @$250. Oh, and I ordered the volume/tone control for $41. It hasn't arrived yet, but it plugs into the D-Tar, so no disassembly required. It controls the wavelength. So, $291 for a compact system.

Wrote DPA about it and here's what Jarrod said:

The 4061 is labeled as lo but is really ‘normal’ sensitivity. It’s more than sensitive enough for your guitar. We see the 4060 most often used in broadway/theatre applications where the mic is mounted under clothing or below chest level on talent.

I modified the D-Tar per their D-Tar's online instructions. Used a 10K resistor for R17 and a 10K for R14 (10.1dB gain), but the mic was way too hot compared to the wavelength, so I swapped R14 out for a 33K giving a 4.4dB gain. With no R14 I couldn't get it to work at all.

I got a bag of those wire holder stick-ons from HomeDepot for @ $3? I stuffed the opening with some foam with the 4061 in the middle. It has a stiff wire attached (8" long) so I bent it around in a circle (spring-like) to take up the slack and it 'hangs' under the bridge.

The D-Tar threaded/jack was a bit short for my end block so I removed all but one nut/washer (that keeps it attached to the preamp case) and pushed it through the hole. One nut/washer on the outside and put the strap holder on backwards to get the threads to tighten. It seems to work.

I used a male stereo 1/4" jack and some 1/8" thick microphone cable to fashion an extension cable that allows me to split the two inputs to a 1/4" female and an XLR out. All I need to plug in is an XLR and a 1/4" cable into two channels. I use an 8ve doubler on the pickup for the 'boomp' and the mic picks up the 'chick' for the style of music I play using this 'setup'. It's for a 3 piece old timey contra dance band called 'The Grouchy Geezers'. I mostly play 'sock guitar' to back up the fiddle and mandolin. The 8ve doubler provides the bass - so it sounds like a 4 piece band. It's my solution to sound engineers who see a string band and make us sound like a 'midrange' string band with no bass - even if I insist they boost it on the guitar.

I tell folks I play bass on the guitar. It's a lot of barre chords emphasizing the bass line with the 'chick' sound providing the back beat. It works great for a dance.

Ok, enough of that stuff. How does the D-Tar/DPA sound? FANTASTIC!

I played around with the settings and it's plenty hot. For my setup I found that a little pickup and just a bit more mic sounds really good. The pickup provides a 'snap', a presence to the note and the mic does what a mic does. It's a nice blend and it doesn't sound wonky at all.

This setup will make playing more comfortable because now I don't have to keep a stand mic right in front of the guitar - meaning, I'm sitting forward for most of the night keeping the distance constant. Also, no banging the guitar into the mic when I'm not paying attention! I hate that, never mind the 'character mark' it makes in the top!!

No, I'm not an electrical engineer. You need a basic understanding of soldering - a good skill to have. An ohm meter is handy to determine the 'R' value of the resistor (I have an old box of electronic 'parts'), but not necessary if you can buy two resistors from RatShack? Some time. That's it.

Thanks to Doug for answering my questions and to Bravebone for creating this super thread!

[joelh]

I played fiddle at the dance with Goldhedge last weekend and I have to admit he sounded pretty good. I can't tell you what he had inside the guitar, but he was using a quarter inch plug instead of our usual Shure BG 4.1, and it sounded about as good. (I was mostly listening to the fiddle though, I admit.)

On the other hand, I have been trying with far less success to use a knob I added under the strap button to hold an ATM 350 (my regular fiddle mic) when I play out with my Bourgeois Vintage OM. (The clip works fine on my fiddle's chin rest but slips and moves around too much on the guitar.)

So if you can't beat them... I was thinking of trying the same DPA mic on my guitar, but I don't really want to add a pick up, blender etc., or even a pre amp. (I'm trying to simplify things here.) So what do you all think of the DPA mic, wired into a stereo quarter inch jack. I would then run a stereo quarter to 3 pin/XLR cable into a phantom board to power it. (I currently use a Mackie 1402.) If the cable wasn't too long how would that work? (Please try to use short, simple sentences, I'm not a techie.)

Thanks for any insights.

Joel