Baggs Lyric

[Doubleneck]

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...s/qa0107_2.htm

PZM all new to me, been interesting read, has anyone else used this concept of the soundboard being the boundary plate? Certainly is not new technology?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not sure you can think of this pickup in terms of directionality. It would be an omni if anything, but the boundary effect would seem to me to change that way of thinking. As DN is seeing, what I've noticed is that it picks up evenly everywhere. Tapping on the body directly over the mic is no different than tapping as far from it as I can get. There don't appear to be any hot spots. I also don't think there's any connection between how/where you place any pickup *inside* the guitar vs where you place an external mic. Just two entirely different scenarios.

Hi Doug...

You may be right about where you place it not being comparable to an external mic, nor perhaps even an internal standard mic. But I'm still trying to figure out where the boundary concept fits the Lyric.

On a traditional PZM (Pressure Zone Microphone) the opening for the mic was situated at the floor (ceiling, wall), and the plate it was mounted on needed to be flush with the wall/floor/ceiling, not suspended. It was definitely capable of both omni-directional and semi-uni-directional use.

Shure tried some PZM mics without a plate for more flexibility, but the front was still designated (so you didn't mount one on a stage floor and have it picking up the audience instead of actors).

I've used Crown PZM mics in the middle of a conference table with good success for radio interviews with groups of people, yet we found with grand pianos, or drum kits, or with stage productions, the placement was more sensitive than 'middle of the lid', or middle of the wall etc.

We also found they suffered from a less pleasant tone reproduction than traditional mics, and that may not be the case at all with the Lyric, so I'm still trying to wrap my head around the PZM aspect of it a bit.

I've gone back and listened to your samples again,including the adjusted ones, and your DPA 4061 sample was still the best internal mic sound you recorded (save for the external mics). Even better than the Lyric through the SPS-1.

Seems to me like the Lyric will be another good option for a decent dual source rig. Not better than the DPA, stock K&K Silver Bullet, Joe Mills, Crown or other internal mics which are being used currently.

I still don't hear it as a single source option because of the apparent lack of bass I'm hearing in every solo-use sample you've posted. Maybe the Lyric's bass can be boosted to compensate (like the K&K bass is usually trimmed), but I hear worse side-effects from boosting EQ frequencies than from cutting them.

And the samples on the Baggs site are everything from stellar to distorted.

Looking forward to more experimentation live...and less direct recordings (which are often not representative of live play at all).

[throbert]

I'm not an expert on mics but I've had friends in the business who were and Larry J.'s take on the PZM is what I recall in conversations with them years ago. I remember seeing and using a Crown PZM over 20 years ago. I'm still not completely sold on this idea but if it gets results then I would consider trying one. I also recall Tommy Emmanuel stated from a stage performance I saw from him years ago that he used a cheap Radio Shack mic in his Maton. He has always sounded good but he's a great player anyway. Again, whatever sounds good live with decent-to-good feedback rejection at stage volume is what I'm more interested in and not necessarily a direct recording. However, I really appreciate Doug's efforts.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2] But I'm still trying to figure out where the boundary concept fits the Lyric.

I don't know. You could probably find Bagg's patents on the Lyric for technical details. I'm mostly just looking at it as a user and how it responds.

I've gone back and listened to your samples again,including the adjusted ones, and your DPA 4061 sample was still the best internal mic sound you recorded (save for the external mics). Even better than the Lyric through the SPS-1.

What you listening on? On my studio monitors, as well as thru my AER, the raw sound of the DPA would be unusable. Bassy, boomy, distance sounding. If you're listening on computer speakers, maybe that stuff's being lost. I know it works great as an addin to the K&K and other pickups, where I knock off some bass, and actually want that "distant" i.e. "air" sound added in. But alone, it's not usable, and I have tried using it alone on a few gigs. No dice.

I still don't hear it as a single source option because of the apparent lack of bass I'm hearing in every solo-use sample you've posted.

That may be a matter of taste, and I don't know how it will work live yet. But what I'm hearing on the recordings is almost exactly what my guitar sounds like. The pickup's not losing any bass from the guitar - that's what the guitar sounds like in person. My guess is that if I try it in a bassy guitar, it will sound more bassy. It sounds like you're objecting to the sound of my OM more than the Lyric. I could put it in my Ryan to try a deeper-sounding guitar, but I'd have to pull out the K&Ks, which is a pain.

I understand that for live use, we often want an exaggerated and more solid bass than the acoustic tone of the guitar - that's my objection to the whole "just like my guitar, but louder" goal so many people have – so it remains to be see if a pickup that is as balanced as the guitar, no more, no less, will sound good live, or if I'll wish for a less natural sound, with the exaggerated bass of a more traditional pickup. But people keep asking for a pickup that preserves the sound of their guitar, and I think the Lyric may be the closest option I've heard so far, for better or worse.

It's always intriguing to put together multiple pickups, looking for a magic combination - sometimes that works, sometimes it makes a mess. I'm certainly interested in trying a combo of the K&K+Lyric, but I think it's a mistake to think of the the Lyric as just another internal mic like the Silver Bullet, that only works as an add-in to another system. Maybe it's not coming across on recordings, and maybe you won't be able to see what I mean unless you try it yourself, but to me it's acting and sounding *very* different than a typical internal mic.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't know. You could probably find Bagg's patents on the Lyric for technical details. I'm mostly just looking at it as a user and how it responds.


What you listening on? On my studio monitors, as well as thru my AER, the raw sound of the DPA would be unusable. Bassy, boomy, distance sounding. If you're listening on computer speakers, maybe that stuff's being lost. I know it works great as an addin to the K&K and other pickups, where I knock off some bass, and actually want that "distant" i.e. "air" sound added in. But alone, it's not usable, and I have tried using it alone on a few gigs. No dice.



That may be a matter of taste, and I don't know how it will work live yet. But what I'm hearing on the recordings is almost exactly what my guitar sounds like. The pickup's not losing any bass from the guitar - that's what the guitar sounds like in person. My guess is that if I try it in a bassy guitar, it will sound more bassy. It sounds like you're objecting to the sound of my OM more than the Lyric. I could put it in my Ryan to try a deeper-sounding guitar, but I'd have to pull out the K&Ks, which is a pain.

I understand that for live use, we often want an exaggerated and more solid bass than the acoustic tone of the guitar - that's my objection to the whole "just like my guitar, but louder" goal so many people have – so it remains to be see if a pickup that is as balanced as the guitar, no more, no less, will sound good live, or if I'll wish for a less natural sound, with the exaggerated bass of a more traditional pickup. But people keep asking for a pickup that preserves the sound of their guitar, and I think the Lyric may be the closest option I've heard so far, for better or worse.

It's always intriguing to put together multiple pickups, looking for a magic combination - sometimes that works, sometimes it makes a mess. I'm certainly interested in trying a combo of the K&K+Lyric, but I think it's a mistake to think of the the Lyric as just another internal mic like the Silver Bullet, that only works as an add-in to another system. Maybe it's not coming across on recordings, and maybe you won't be able to see what I mean unless you try it yourself, but to me it's acting and sounding *very* different than a typical internal mic.

Hi Doug...

Yeah to keep us from going in circles, I'll take your word for it that on full-fidelity systems with sub woofers that your DPA samples boom some; but I'm using a $70 Bose computer system without subwoofing, and they sound pretty good with about every genre of music I listen to and certainly do not lack in bottom end - just the really LOW stuff which I'd EQ out anyway.

Also, when you use the DPA live, you don't set it like the sample you recorded. And despite your apparent flaws, the DPA samples were richer and sweeter than the Lyric.

K&K plus Lyric...
If the boundary system works on either side of the bridge, why not just play leapfrog and put the Lyric on the backside of the bridge and leave the K&K in place? There's not an alternative way to do the K&Ks effectively, but it seems to be being tossed around that the Lyric is less location specific.

I don't think most who would try to hybrid the two would re-locate the K&K sensors to make the Lyric the main component.

A thought...
The most revealing/valuable thread you have posted in the last 6 months in regards to pickups was the interviews with half-dozen players who demoed their pickup systems and explained them.

One important point I took away from the interviews is…there are a lot of ways to get great sound from pickups that sound very guitar-like when played live...and every artist (as I am thinking back on it) used a stage amp as an intergral part of their setup, and sometimes preamps but not always.

I was thinking that a Keith Sewell interview added to that with his current Lyric + stage gear would be a great addition.

Going to the source…
I found it interesting that Lloyd Baggs in his interview at NAMM indicated this was developed primarily for Bluegrass players and is getting wider interest. My favorite directly recorded samples on Baggs site were played by Keith Sewell - and my least favorite live samples were by Keith Sewell (from NAMM).

The studio direct stuff sounded very natural, but on his NAMM demo mids were honky and the bass sounded a bit honky/boxy. I doubt he plays it 'flat' when he plays live in larger venues. There was zero info as to what the NAMM setup was.

Also, Lloyd Baggs said in his interview it was designed to be used without a preamp; yet I think that piece attached to the endpin is a preamp, right?

Baggs could do for this what they did with their original Dual Source. They sold a version of the mic/preamp that was not pre-attached to a pickup, so the user could add it to their existing pickup.

I'd hope Baggs would offer a Lyric without 9 Volt battery and/or preamp.

Still looking to hear it live in person...

[Doubleneck]

Doug is absolutely right on, when he says this pickup sounds like your guitar. This morning I decided to try the Lryic before I went to work to see if a good nights sleep would change my thoughts or ears. I turned on the amp started to play and thought I screwed something up: it wasn't working. Then I saw the light flashing on my amp with every strum. Turns out it sounded so much like my guitar I didn't think it was on!! seriously.

Larry if you read the Baggs webpage there is a lot is going on in that endpin preamp, several circuits with patents pending. It's the pickup and the preamp pulling it off.

With the Doubleneck I was intent on dual sourcing: UST are already installed, but I am seriously doubting I will bother to go there. Too early to tell but I am not seeing it.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]I'd hope Baggs would offer a Lyric without 9 Volt battery and/or preamp.

This would make it much more interesting to me.

Steve

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]

Also, when you use the DPA live, you don't set it like the sample you recorded. And despite your apparent flaws, the DPA samples were richer and sweeter than the Lyric.

Right, I was trying to see how well the Lyric canceled out the in-the-box sound with that test, not trying to see which one I could fanagle to sound better.

K&K plus Lyric...
If the boundary system works on either side of the bridge, why not just play leapfrog and put the Lyric on the backside of the bridge and leave the K&K in place?

Yep, I did try that on the Taylor - just moving the Lyric to the back part of the bridge plate. Seem to work fine. So I could add that to my Ryan with the K&Ks, but I like to try things one step at a time. I've got a gig this weekend where I'll try the Lyric in the martin as it was intended to be used, so I can see how that works. I completely agree direct recordings are different than live (got lots of experience with recording pickups direct vs using them live!), so I need to try the live test at least once. Then on to other experiments. Meanwhile, I don't want to wreck every guitar I have with pickups before the gig this weekend - I want my Ryan setup in a way I know works (K&K+DPA) in case the Lyric in the Martin is a bust.

I don't think most who would try to hybrid the two would re-locate the K&K sensors to make the Lyric the main component.

Nope, I wouldn't suggest that. I just ran into a case where someone did mount K&Ks behind the strings, and got weird behavior. And it was exactly the "direct vs live" problem. The sound was perfectly fine in a home setting, became an issue live. The same could also be true of using the Lyric in some odd position.

One important point I took away from the interviews is…there are a lot of ways to get great sound from pickups that sound very guitar-like when played live...and every artist (as I am thinking back on it) used a stage amp as an intergral part of their setup, and sometimes preamps but not always.

Not all. Juber, for example, doesn't use a stage amp. But I think the other 4 did. I think the main message there is that the others don't trust monitors, and want to control the on-stage sound. But everyone's needs are different. I've done it both ways. If the monitors and sound man are good, that usually beats a stage amp. But there's something reassuring about have something you can completely control yourself, and it's not uncommon to run into lousy monitors.

The studio direct stuff sounded very natural, but on his NAMM demo mids were honky and the bass sounded a bit honky/boxy. I doubt he plays it 'flat' when he plays live in larger venues. There was zero info as to what the NAMM setup was.

Keep in mind that you can barely hear yourself think at NAMM. Any recording of a NAMM booth performance is pretty tough to evaluate. A near miracle if the recording is even audible.

Baggs could do for this what they did with their original Dual Source. They sold a version of the mic/preamp that was not pre-attached to a pickup, so the user could add it to their existing pickup.

Maybe. Not clear that the mic works correctly without processing by the electronics. Worth a try to see how the raw mic works - maybe I'll try that someday. But I think, again, that the real point is that the Lyric is not being intended (marketed), nor is is behaving like an "add-in" mic. I think equating to "It's just another Silver Bullet-like mic" is missing the concept. If you want it to be a Silver Bullet, and think it's no different than the Silver Bullet, I'd just buy the Silver Bullet - much cheaper!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...Maybe. Not clear that the mic works correctly without processing by the electronics. Worth a try to see how the raw mic works - maybe I'll try that someday. But I think, again, that the real point is that the Lyric is not being intended (marketed), nor is is behaving like an "add-in" mic. I think equating to "It's just another Silver Bullet-like mic" is missing the concept. If you want it to be a Silver Bullet, and think it's no different than the Silver Bullet, I'd just buy the Silver Bullet - much cheaper!

Hi Doug...

I hope I'm not conveying that that the Lyric is just another knock-off of 'other mics' - silver bullet, Mills, DPA, etc. I'm saying it might make a great second source for dual source rigs - and that's where the thought of your published interview thread came to mind.

I have read all their self-published stuff and understand it. I understand their intent, and maybe this is the mic to top all other choices out there and cause everyone to migrate in an entirely new direction for our live play rigs.

At this point, nothing I've heard would push me there, but this is only the 2nd iteration of the concept (Lloyd Bagg's and Steve Sewell's discussion that it started with the Anthem). Who says this is the end of it?

Regarding the interviews with the different artists and their stage rigs......
Not one of the guys interviewed had the same stage rig, or same internal pickup systems used the same way going on, yet they all get a pretty good live sound (pretty good meaning something most of us could live with ourselves).

I think adding more artists to that 'series' and the detailed discussions of their live rigs might prove to be more helpful than raw pickup samples.

Back when you began documenting pickups and comparing/contrasting them with mic recordings, acoustic pickup, preamp and amplifier choices were far more limited that they are today.

I heard you suggest to someone the other day that if they are trying to replicate someone's sound they should consider replicating their rig from pickup forward (and perhaps even the instrument it's in).

While we'd all like to hope that there's a one-size-fits-all pickup rig in existence, it doesn't appear that we're there yet. The fact the Lyric sounds better in the Martin than your Taylor is a pretty interesting place to begin exploring that.

[EDIT]I forgot to comment, I had not considered that the circuitry they were talking about may be in the preamp not in the mic itself...[EDIT]

[revive]

Originally Posted by steveyam

Apologies if the question has already been asked - and answered - but when, if not already, will the Lyric be in the shops? any idea of price?

Hello,
MAP is $199. We will start shipping them early/mid next week. I just posted this on AGF Marketplace.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I hope I'm not conveying that that the Lyric is just another knock-off of 'other mics' - silver bullet, Mills, DPA, etc. I'm saying it might make a great second source for dual source rigs - and that's where the thought of your published interview thread came to mind.

Anything's possible. I've certainly tried to combine about every pair of pickups I can over the years. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What I'd *hope* is that someone comes out with a system that sounds good without everyone having to do custom mods themselves. Tho it's undocumented, it appears Baggs has allowed for a 2nd source in the plugin preamp. We'll see. What would be really great is if it isn't needed! We seem to be so conditioned by lousy pickups that we think the first thing we have to do with a new one is modify it. Wouldn't it be cool it that wasn't the case?

Regarding the interviews with the different artists and their stage rigs......
...
I think adding more artists to that 'series' and the detailed discussions of their live rigs might prove to be more helpful than raw pickup samples.

Yep, I think the video version of that article is the most useful thing AG has ever done. I had nothing to do with it. The magazine does include the artists's rigs listed in just about every interview, and of course, there are endless reviews, which often include video demos. But having 5 pros talk about what they actually use and why in some depth was fascinating. Maybe they'll do more, I have no idea. My guess is that that was a fair bit of work.

[EDIT]I forgot to comment, I had not considered that the circuitry they were talking about may be in the preamp not in the mic itself...[EDIT]

Yeah, it's not clear that there's any circuitry in the mic mount itself. Could be, but it's so small and lightweight that I doubt it.

At this point, I'm far more interested in getting some actual live performance experience with the Lyric, using it the way it's being positioned, and see where that goes, than in dissecting/modding, etc. Baggs has clearly put a lot of R&D into this, and created something that appears to be quite novel, so I just try to keep an open mind and check out what they've come up with. I'm sure this won't be the "last pickup" :-), Baggs seems to be on a creative role, and I expect a few other radically new ideas to surface from some other sources in the near future, too.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...Baggs seems to be on a creative role, and I expect a few other radically new ideas to surface from some other sources in the near future, too.

As always Doug...


Thanks for the dialogue, and exploration.

I hope you are able to reinstall the Lyric in your Taylor and other guitars and give those a whirl live as well…

It seems when innovation flourishes, customers win.

[Petty1818]

I realize I might be jumping the gun here since the Lyric is so new but I wonder if this pickup could be installed in other instruments like a bouzouki? It looks to have such an easy installation that I can see a lot of people experimenting with them.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I realize I might be jumping the gun here since the Lyric is so new but I wonder if this pickup could be installed in other instruments like a bouzouki? It looks to have such an easy installation that I can see a lot of people experimenting with them.

I would agree. Can't see why it wouldn't work well. Steve

[buzzardwhiskey]

I just saw a wonderful concert featuring Martin Blanes playing several different models during the show, one of which was a beautiful redwood Stearn with the new Lyric pickup.

It's gonna sell well.