That late 60's and early 70's guitar sound

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

James McMurtry has been using a single RE20 in his live stream shows on FB for months. Actually set what looks to be 90 degrees off axis and some distance away. Sounds great in that application.

I thought the RE20 was really sounding great for McMurtry's weekly shows, too.

When the dogs aren't causing a ruckus it's a super show!

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I haven't read any of the mentioned books Sometimes such info does get written into articles about specific engineers working on some of those iconic records that sometimes you can stumble on in google search but it's pretty hit and miss

I googled Wally Heider studio and stumbled on this photo (no info on artist, engineer, or time frame) but looks like EV RE 20's on both the vocal and guitar

Van Morrison, early 70s - engineer?

D.H.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Dave Hicks

Van Morrison, early 70s - engineer?

D.H.

Thanks I would guess given Heider is given credit as the engineer owner in the late 60's early 70 it is likely him ?

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Thanks I would guess given Heider is given credit as the engineer owner in the late 60's early 70 it is likely him ?

I don't know which album this was - Tupelo Honey? St Dominic? Allmusic lists engineers for those two as Stephen Barncard, Steve Brandon, David Brown, Jim Gaines, Donn Landee, Bob Shumaker and Doc Storch. There were multiple studios involved on those records, it seems.

It appears that it takes many engineers to keep Van the Man happy.

D.H.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Dave Hicks

I don't know which album this was - Tupelo Honey? St Dominic? Allmusic lists engineers for those two as Stephen Barncard, Steve Brandon, David Brown, Jim Gaines, Donn Landee, Bob Shumaker and Doc Storch. There were multiple studios involved on those records, it seems.

It appears that it takes many engineers to keep Van the Man happy.

D.H.

Yes because I was going off memory (which mine is not great) I just reread the Wiki page and realized it actually said. "he was instrumental in recording the San Francisco Sound" which is a bit ambiguous ,,,,so that may or may not mean being the engineer ,,, But it does say it was "Tupelo Honey"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_...early%201970s.

[johnnydobbers]

You guys are involved in the coolest threads....

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I haven't read any of the mentioned books Sometimes such info does get written into articles about specific engineers working on some of those iconic records that sometimes you can stumble on in google search but it's pretty hit and miss

I googled Wally Heider studio and stumbled on this photo (no info on artist, engineer, or time frame) but looks like EV RE 20's on both the vocal and guitar

I was looking at this and trying to figure out why they'd both be on dynamics. Then it occurred to me that they are both goboed up pretty well. That means there probably was a band being recorded simultaneously. Back then many even high-end independent studios only had a few nice condensers and the rest of the kit was dynamics and ribbons of various grades. The label-owned studios were better equipped but these indies were a new phenomenon and while trying to get established, were not as well-funded. Remember that the Neumann large diaphragm condensers started in the 1940s but were never cheap. The AKG C450 SD system debuted in 1969* but they were expensive then as well. So, a group production often ended up as a triage with the mics being used where they provided the best effect. RE-20 on the kick, vocals, possibly even guitars, and LDCs reserved for piano and/or drum overheads.

So when we hear two voices and a single guitar and it sounds like LDCs, it makes sense.

Bob

* We've got a ~1970 AKG C450 body from that period at our studio. We've got a total of three of the 450 bodies including two from the mid-70s. We also got a couple of 452s and a boatload of 460s. We also have a matched pair of the modern C451Bs. Of course, we support three studios with all that poop. I've wondered why we had the AKGs instead of the Neumann KM84s and then it occurred to me: We were an all-Neve facility with an 8024 (1073s) and a pair of 8058s (33102s). Old Neves have rounder sounding preamps. There's something about the Neve/451 relationship that mellows the mic and makes it sound really nice. Some of the best hi-hat and ride cymbal bell "ping!" sounds I've ever gotten came out of that pairing.

[srick]

This is one of the most interesting threads that I have seen in long awhile. In the early 70s, I was very involved in our college radio station. Countless hours behind the board were spent studying the liner notes, including where the recording was made, who produced the album, and of course the backup performers.

Of course, back then, everything had an analog solution: you want echo? Open the door to the stairwell. Guitar too loud? Move the mic back a few inches. etc. etc. And then of course there was always the magic of multiple takes until you got it right!

Let’s not forget one other thing. These years defined the acoustic guitar genre for the next sixty years. All of us discussing this thread have that analog, acoustic base line (no pun) firmly implanted in our memory.

Thanks again for starting this thread and as always, Bob Womack for your voluminous knowledge.

Best,

Rick

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I've wondered why we had the AKGs instead of the Neumann KM84s and then it occurred to me: We were an all-Neve facility with an 8024 (1073s) and a pair of 8058s (33102s). Old Neves have rounder sounding preamps. There's something about the Neve/451 relationship that mellows the mic and makes it sound really nice. Some of the best hi-hat and ride cymbal bell "ping!" sounds I've ever gotten came out of that pairing.

Which brings up another good point,,,, not only paring mic and instrument and or voice , but mic and pre as well. Obviously those of us self recording and with disposable income budgets to deal with, are usually limited in mic pre selection compared to a pro studio.
My case in point, I have a pretty nice A Designs MP2A 2 channel "hybrid tube" mic pre and had been using it almost exclusively as my mic pre running through the previous Avid Omni interface I had . BUT now with the new Avid Carbon interface and it's mic pre's, I am now finding I kinda prefer it for both my pair of AEA Ribbons for guitar, and my ADK Z Mod 251 Tube mic for voice, into the Carbons mic pre's .

[Glennwillow]

I am also finding this discussion and information fascinating!

- Glenn

[alohachris]

Aloha Knives & Guitars,

I'm late to respond to this thread, but have been lurking & enjoying from the sidelines. Great perspectives K&G, Bob (incredible inside information & histories), Eric, Kevwind, etc. about the music, recording elements, artists & how the music was made. Great Flashbacks! Ha!

There WERE some great examples of nice acoustic analog sound from that era - name your hero. We just couldn't replicate them exactly at home back then with the gear that was available & affordable to us in late '60's - early 70's. It was still studio time for most if you had a group of songs worth recording.

However, as a gigger thrown out on a stage stool typically with a pair of ancient, beat-up Shure 57's or 58's, & some teenaged punk wannabe engineer at the board, this is what I remember most about the "sound" of that era. PLEASE TURN SOME OF THESE UP HIGH TO HEAR THEM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FINnXz06qic

And this...

https://freesound.org/people/Natha1308/sounds/261343/

This Too...
https://freesound.org/people/randomr.../sounds/24306/

This ad nauseum:
https://freesound.org/people/ipears1/sounds/118076/


The multitude of unexpected & unwanted Live "effects" is what I remember more about that uncontrollable live sound era than the music I played. Sad Huh? Well, like most Boomers, that whole era is kinda (VERY) murky & purple-hazy. And the doses were uncontrollable. And Effing Fun!

For Recording, fighting analog Tape Hiss without killing the sound of a guitar is by far what I remember most. That was my biggest challenge on that analog tape gear.

In '79, when I got my then-very-expensive, first Sony F-1 digital recorder, I almost cried on the first playback. After years of terrible noise, there was Absolutely No Tape Hiss or sound at all. There was Less warmth & depth, but no noise & clearer & more detailed! THAT was more than a strong revelation for me! And again, that was more memorable than the music I was recording on that gear back then. Ha!

Here is the Tape Hiss from a blank ferous oxide analog tape. Turn it way up to hear!

https://freesound.org/people/kijjaz/sounds/430973/

And it's very difficult to explain in words how "affordable" noise reduction units would kill the natural dynamics, feel & sounds of an acoustic guitar but they did. Their compression was brutal. That is, until I got into 1-2" Studer decks in the mid-70's with the best NR available in studios then - still my favorite recorded acoustic guitar results.

In 1970, we all tried to copy the sounds of our acoustic heros' recordings on "very sparse & terrible quality" gear, without all the cool stuff we have at home today to have the potential to match that pro sound.

But we couldn't replicate them it at home affordably then. Example: A fifteen-minute long pancake of 1" quality ferrous oxide tape cost $46 bucks in the mid-70's! Nuff sed.

So most players I knew saved for studio time on demos. Today, with some knowledge & experience, & trained EARS, we don't need a studio to achieve pro-level quality on our tracks at home. I still think we should use ME's at studio's for mastering our tracks for release. That's what gives us a "Neil Young," or JT, or Paul Simon, or Richie Havens, or Bonnie Raitt, or Cat Stevens, or Leo Kottke quality "sound" from that VERY CREATIVE Golden Era for music from us then-kids. The ME's experience is worth it!

Two last thoughts: 1) Seeing that McMurtry picture, In realize that I hated Ovation guitars then & now - too many reasons to list. And #2? - I can't remember it aymore! HA!

Oh yeah, - 2) Few acoustic players of that era recorded their vocals separately, without their HUGE DREADNAUGHT OR JUMBO guitars ever on the verge of feeding back. I didn't even ever consider any other way on my pathetic little cassette recordings. Dylan won that battle with his engineers & every other acoustic player followed suit. Once I understood the many available options, for the last 40+ years, I always recorded vocals separately. Oh, the wisdom!

I'm really glad that the Dreadnaught-only era from back then is over, although you could find vintage small 20's & 30's Martin's in pawn shops for under $100 because of no demand. I had several 0's & 00 1920's Koa Martin's in the late 60's for under $100 each. Sheesh!

Of course, Smaller guitars just work better for live or recording. They sound MUCH more balanced & are just all around "better" too, IMO. If you don't believe me, build some small 00 guitars for yourself. Right Eric! Ha! 12-Fret, Deeper 00 is Da Bess Kine acoustic guitar shape! Been playing them since I built my first deeper OO sized guitar in 1974! No dreads in my house since then, even for when I rarely played with bluegrass bands! But for the late 60's & early 70's, Martin Dreadnaughts were the only way to get that real "Old Man" sound. I would go back to those days - even with those terrible mic's & worst home recording gear - in a heartbeat! Now, WE ARE THE 'Old Man.'

"74 and there's not much more."

Nice topic K&G!

alohachris