Alternative neck joints

[Halcyon/Tinker]

I switched to a bolt on butt joint years ago. Not as convenient as adjustable or bolt on/off, but it's simple to make and easy to eventually fix when the day comes, compared to a dovetail. A decent compromise...

[mercy]

I love the idea of a cantilevered neck but every bit of metal that bolt on systems use adds weight, a little here and there adds up. I dont keep my guitars that long so I prefer dovetails but because its easier, more and more builders are going that way. So its hard to find a builder that does dovetails any more.

[justonwo]

I love the adjustability of the neck in my Baranik. It’s a pretty clever design. I think the main impediment to a new joint is, as Alan says, conservatism. That being said, the downside of more traditional neck joints doesn’t bother me too much. The kind of neck joint, when stacked against all the other things I care about in a guitar, doesn’t figure very high on the list.

[jfgesquire]

There are some rabid Martin fans on another forum that will tell you their Standard Series Martin is so much better (not different, but better) than a 16 Series Martin with either the older mortise and tenon joint or their newer simple dove tail, as they call it.

They will try to convince you to get rid if your lesser Martin and save up for a “real Martin” like theirs.

[Marcus Wong]

Michel Pellerin of Pellerin Guitars does something called a Spanish Assembly Integral Neck. The neck runs all along the entire fretboard even to the 22nd fret, and this keeps it from warping at the 14th fret as the end of the fretboard does not move independently from the neck, resulting in a perfectly straight fretboard from nut to rosette. This neck is attached to the top, sides and back to maximise the stability, thus highly reducing the chances of warping over the years.

[canyongargon]

I really like the engineering behind Taylor's NT neck. I would love to have a "traditional" Martin-style OM built with Taylor's neck system. I think a Collings is probably as close as I'll get to that dream.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Marcus Wong

Michel Pellerin of Pellerin Guitars does something called a Spanish Assembly Integral Neck.

When I started making guitars in 1978, I was taught to use the Spanish foot method, as you describe and pictures show. It works fine on lower-tension classical guitars that rarely need a neck reset. It does not work well on higher-tension steel string guitars that eventually need a neck reset, since the options available to the no-joint neck is to 1) cut the neck off and add a joint, 2) "slip" the back, changing the angle of the sides or 3) remove the fingerboard and place a wedge under it (or make a wedge shaped fingerboard). In terms of neck resets, it is not a step forward, but two steps backward for steel string construction. Yes, it does eliminate the potential for a "hump" at the neck joint, but so does careful fitting of traditional neck joints.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

When I started making guitars in 1978, I was taught to use the Spanish foot method, as you describe and pictures show. It works fine on lower-tension classical guitars that rarely need a neck reset. It does not work well on higher-tension steel string guitars that eventually need a neck reset, since the options available to the no-joint neck is to 1) cut the neck off and add a joint, 2) "slip" the back, changing the angle of the sides or 3) remove the fingerboard and place a wedge under it (or make a wedge shaped fingerboard). In terms of neck resets, it is not a step forward, but two steps backward for steel string construction. Yes, it does eliminate the potential for a "hump" at the neck joint, but so does careful fitting of traditional neck joints.

Agree completely...again.

It seems all but impossible for most to accept or understand that the type of neck joint has little to do with the need for a neck reset, other than dictate how simple or complex it will be to execute.

[redir]

"Moreover, some of these alternative construction methods also seem to improve the intonation of the upper frets considerably, as the whole fingerboard becomes a unit, and stays that way. "


I don't think it has anything to do with intonation. If it does then I'd like to hear the explanation. I mean as strings rise off the fretboard after many years of use then sure it will cause intonation issues but the choice of neck joint as implied in the OP has nothing to do with intonation.

[mercy]

I appreciate the builders that frequent this forum because I doubt there is anything they dont know, unlike me. I see their being on here as a ministry to less experienced and novice aficionados. For John and Ed and Charles etc to participate on a thread Im sure takes commitment.

[dekutree64]

I'm another steel string builder using integral necks. I don't really feel like it improves stability or anything. Just easier to construct and lighter weight. Plus allows for some nifty cutaway heel shapes that you can't do with a detachable neck.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

When I started making guitars in 1978, I was taught to use the Spanish foot method, as you describe and pictures show. It works fine on lower-tension classical guitars that rarely need a neck reset. It does not work well on higher-tension steel string guitars that eventually need a neck reset, since the options available to the no-joint neck is to 1) cut the neck off and add a joint, 2) "slip" the back, changing the angle of the sides or 3) remove the fingerboard and place a wedge under it (or make a wedge shaped fingerboard). In terms of neck resets, it is not a step forward, but two steps backward for steel string construction. Yes, it does eliminate the potential for a "hump" at the neck joint, but so does careful fitting of traditional neck joints.

IMO, heel slip is the only "right" way to do it. I use hot hide glue (easy to separate and reglue), no back binding (so the seam is easy to access), and shellac finish (easy to repair). Arguably easier to reset than a dovetail since you don't have to touch the frets.

But I do want to try one of those externally adjustable neck joints. Being able to effortlessly tweak the action seasonally or when trying different string sets would be very nice. And of course never having to worry about needing a neck reset at all.

[charles Tauber]

Similarly, most new drivers don't venture onto Ferrari discussion boards or car design discussion boards. Many want a basic car in which one peddle makes the car go and the other makes the car stop, while providing a comfortable seat and a radio. The piston arrangement, material the O rings are made of, etc. don't really matter to them. Nor should they, necessarily.

Most beginners are interested in "entry-level" guitars, typically the sub-$1000 range. For most beginners, what is required is something with 6 strings that is comfortable to hold and play and on which they can learn some basic chords, some strumming, maybe some fingerpicking. What wood the bracing is made of, what bracing arrangement is used, whether they are scalloped or not, how the neck is attached, etc. don't really matter to them... Nor should they, necessarily.

But for Taylor's NT neck, you won't find most of the "high-end" neck arrangements that have been mentioned in this discussion on sub-$1000 guitars. Maybe someday, but not currently.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by dekutree64

I'm another steel string builder using integral necks. I don't really feel like it improves stability or anything. Just easier to construct and lighter weight. Plus allows for some nifty cutaway heel shapes that you can't do with a detachable neck.

You mean like this...



The above photo is of a classical guitar. I would NOT want to try slipping the back on that. I've also done that on steel string guitars. NOT a good choice.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by jfgesquire

I listened to my ears and bought a Martin DC-MMVE because it sounded better 'to me' than the Martin HD-28 and Taylors that were also hanging in the room.

Thank you: you've restored my faith in humankind.

Peer pressure is amazing.

Only if you pay any attention to it.

[ancient tones]

Originally Posted by jfgesquire

I listened to my ears and bought a Martin DC-MMVE because it sounded better 'to me' than the Martin HD-28 and Taylors that were also hanging in the room. The experts on another forum told me I should have saved my money up and bought a real Martin with a dovetail joint instead of the neck set on my guitar, which is a simple dovetail, as Martin calls it, A frame and very lightly braced.

Then I bought an all solid Fender PM-2 parlor guitar because I liked the way it felt, played, and sounded and on NGD was met with (paraphrasing) "no one buys Fender acoustics, they're junk."

Peer pressure is amazing.

Right on brother! Buy with your ears and hands, not by the specs.