#61
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Thanks to Doug with his articles on phasing and to DesolationAngel for his great input as well...I am starting to learn. So let me see if I have this right. the Phazer ( I assume this is the product you are talking about. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...=c&matchtype=b You can place the mics where ever you want...and even if you have phasing...from this mic placement..you can correct the phasing problem with this device? IF so, then it would seem like this device would really be a great tool as you could now put the mic for where you think is the best tone...instead of putting the mic where you won't get phasing? Is this correct? |
#62
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I would suggest that you (i) run the other track (the one you did not originally use the phase devise on) OTB through DA, the analog phase adjustment tool and the AD and rerecord that track leaving the phase adjustment set of "0" and next (ii) do what you did to the other track OTB but use the phase adjustment to taste. This does two things. First, it eliminates any relative latency difference between the two tracks (same result as DAW settings might provide). Second, it applies the same analog circuit to both tracks. |
#63
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#64
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I can't even begin to call myself 'expert' in any of this... I literally got the Phazer on Saturday with the intent to actually teach myself more about this stuff. The thing is, unless you've heard phase cancellation then it's difficult to know what it is and what effect it makes on your sound. The nice thing about the Phazer is that you can listen without it–bypassed–and then turn it on. You can flip the phase. Or you can sweep it around and the differences you hear are quite different. As sdelsolray (someone who is well worth paying attention to by the way) states, it does bring it's own issues the way I'm doing it. Radial (a well respected maker of all sorts of clever doodads in bombproof boxes) are not to be sniffed at when it comes to this kind of stuff. But you pay for the privilege. The Phazer isn't as expensive as the Little Labs jobby, but it doesn't do as many things either (it's not a DI for instance).
The other thing to note, and the thing that Doug and I were just going back 'n' forth on, is that with electric guitar kinda stuff, there is often a process called 'reamping', which makes it easy to sit with a phase alignment tool like this and sweep it to get the 'best' sound from two sources. But with acoustic guitar you can't record something and then send it BACK to the guitar. So, what I've been fiddling with this afternoon is using the Phazer in my DAW. So the track I'm fiddling with squirts it's signal out to the Phazer and then back in again (using, in Logic Pro, an 'I/O' plugin). As sdelsolray notes, that introduces it's own issues... to that end the Logic I/O plug actually has a 'ping' button that sends an audio signal to the device and back again... in the case of the Phazer, in my set up, it took 12 samples to go and return. Also Logic Pro X has plug in latency compensation features but I have no idea how good they are. As I said, I'm still an arch amateur and noodler...
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Martin BC, Canada |
#65
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These gizmo's can really only adjust phase at a few frequencies, and with a complex signal like the guitar, you'll always be out of phase at some frequency. Altering the phase at some frequency will change the way cancellations occur, and therefore affect the tone - think of what a phase shifter sounds like - that's a phase adjustment tool that's being swept thru different frequency ranges. The Little Labs and Phazer are a bit like a phase shifter with no sweep. Can be useful as a tone tool - anything that you plug in that makes a sound you like is cool! But it's not really a replacement for mic placement. I hope Desolation will post a demo, so we can hear what he's doing with his. I could post an example with the Little Labs, but since he's reporting good results, it'd be more useful to hear his example.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#66
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BTW, voxengo has a simple automatic phase "correction" tool as a VST plugin. Adobe Audition also has a cool processing operation that will "auto-align" a track dynamically, constantly centering a stereo signal for balance and phase. It can really mess up your sound in some cases, but works well in others.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#67
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The Phazer is more like an ax when what you need is a paring knife when it comes to studio recording of most instruments. It is more suitable to a live venue and low frequency alignment. You can do better with simple in the box delays, or a little more fancy with something like http://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/
And no, the quest is for a good stereo sound, not eliminating phase discrepancies.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#68
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As previously stated... Phazer bought to explore such sonic soupiness... to that end, product working like a charm
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Martin BC, Canada |
#69
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I just brought up a track and tried the IBP plugin on it, just to refresh my memory. You can certainly dial in some different sounds with it, tho I quickly found the warmest, fattest, presumably most phase-aligned setting, on my track, at least - off :-) Also, I mentioned Adobe Audition, and for those interested in phase, it has one of the best phase visualization tools I've seen. Instead of just some overall "correlation" that can only be approximate, it shows you phase at all frequencies and also by time. It can be a great tool for setting up mics (along with the very similar balance view that shows levels by all frequencies), and also makes it very clear that the only way to be 100% phase aligned at all frequencies is to be mono!
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#70
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I have been fooling around with similar....specks... inches apart around 13 inches and only 8 to 9 inches away. So I will try even further like your measurements. But the best results I have had so far...have been at 10 inches apart..with one mic at the 12th fret and the other..at the beginning of the sound hole( the outer rim of my AT4050 to the outer rim of the Sound Hole) This is at 8 inches...and Of course..at that close distance there are other problems..Very, very critical to moving your guitar from left to right...even an inch..makes a big difference in tone....So I look forward to trying your technique. Can you Tell me Doug...where is your first mic placed? 12th...10th? And do you place the mics at 90 degree angles? or Point them inwards a little bit..say at 30 to 45 degrees? |
#71
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Here's a bird-eye view of one setup, wider, 18 inches apart, I think, maybe 20. And here's a closer setup, this is probably 12-15 inches at most. The mics look like they're at different heights, but that's because I have one hanging upside down for no real reason (other than a taller stand). The capsules should be more or less lined up. Angle doesn't really seem to matter much, mics aren't that directional. I may turn them in or out to fine tune the balance in some cases.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar Last edited by Doug Young; 09-07-2015 at 08:43 PM. |
#72
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Thanks so much Doug for the nice pictures...Very Helpful. I really appreciate it!
So I see you are using LDC in both cases. Again...I am a total amateur...can barely operate Logic...as only had a couple of weeks on it. So mostly out of curiosity for the future, as my budget will be on a hold for now....But what are the two sets of Mics you are using? And did you choose LDC over SDC...as you like the more body sound from LDC's? It seems to always be a tiny bit of always a compromise...SDC offer something and LDC's offer another. It is a whole new world of Microphones now. In the old days..it seemed like mics frequency graphs were designed more on the flatter side. Now I see most mics with frequency boost in the higher end. Oh..and what is that funny looking black thing in the middle?...you got me on that one. |
#73
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The big black thing is an AEA R88, stereo ribbon mic, which I usually use in MS, and mix in with the Brauners or Schoeps to taste. It's a very different sounding mic, and adds its own flavor to a recording. It's a bit dark on its own, so I prefer it blended in with something brighter.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#74
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Some of my guitars sound good with mic X, some with mic Y... some work for M/S... some don't... some work here, don't work there. There seems to be endless permutations. My boomier guitars like the crisper mic, the crisper guitars sometimes like a less toppy mic (like a ribbon). Sometimes it's nice to put more mellow LDC up the neck where the sound is 'thinner' and combine it with an SDC pointing at the bridge or lower bottom where the sound is 'thicker'. One of the best results I've had with a Martin CEO-7 was an SDC pointing towards the 12th fret and a Royer 121 coming over my shoulder. Another thing I like doing is recording an LDC in omni, to pick up some room, and then introduce some tight sound from a close up KM184 (or even a DI). Sometimes even introducing a tiny bit of 'hair' on that second track to give a fuller sound. Again, a lot of is down to the 'feel' you're trying to produce. Listen to a band like Wilco and you'll realize that there is no such thing as an 'acoustic guitar sound'. Different song, different guitar, different treatment.
Been reading a lot of production books of late (notably Vols 1 and 2 of Behind the Glass, Glyn Johns' book and Phill Browns') and there are a quite a few engineers who NEVER use more than one mic on an acoustic guitar... or on electric... Some argue that an acoustic guitar is a pointless instrument to try and record in stereo because the instrument itself doesn't have enough separation. If the guitar needs to sit in a mix with other instruments then it might work better with a completely different sound to that which you might consider for a solo guitar performance... There are a million ways and none of them are 'wrong' if they sound good to you and they serve the music you're trying to convey... (and as long as they don't 'break' if summed to mono or shred someone's speakers )
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Martin BC, Canada |
#75
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You have to keep in mind the context when you read about various engineer's methods. If you're mixing an acoustic with a lot of other instruments, mono makes perfect sense. Not sure I get the "pointless" aspect of the instrument, but I can get that it's simply not useful, and maybe even in the way, in typical rock/pop multi-track mix where the engineer wants to create their own artificial soundstage. For the type of music I record - solo fingerstyle guitar, it's extremely "pointfull" :-) It makes a huge difference, which is why virtually any solo guitar recording you hear will be in stereo. But I totally agree with your main point - there's very few rights or wrongs, music's an art, so if it sounds good to you, how you got there, or even what it sounds like makes no difference.
That's one reason I wish more people would post sound files in these types of discussions. It's helpful to say "Doing X sounds like this. Doing Y sounds like this". Saying "X sounds good" is almost meaningless because everyone's taste, style, goals, etc, is different.
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