suggestions on learning a song note for note

[phxguy]

I am trying to learn "The Circle Game" as Joni Mitchell played it in open G and have purchased the lesson from Jerry's Guitar Bar which is very good. I have never attempted to learn a song in this fashion with this detail and the picking pattern varies somewhat from bar to bar. In the past when I wanted to learn a song I got the chords and figured out an arrangement that suited me. I am really struggling with trying to copy the patterns and making it sound like the way it is meant to sound in terms of timing (I am way too slow). For those of you that have been through this process what has worked for you? Should I just try to memorize all the patterns and then concentrate on timing or is there a better way to go about it? By the way, when I play it the way I hear it without the tabs I get the melody in there and timing is pretty good but that's not the way I want to do it so that is very frustrating.

Thanks so much!

[rick-slo]

With some music I think there is value (skill acquisition, breaking out one's personal ruts) in learning note for note, or close to that. With other music (and a lot of that being pattern playing) not so much as it is usually not a technical issue to overcome, and as the original artist was probably somewhat inconsistent in, or even unconscious of, how they played the individual notes each performance.

I find it easiest to learn something in small sections at a time, getting each section up to reasonable tempo before moving on. If the tune's guitar part is mainly just random variations in pattern picking give yourself some slack in how "precise" you are.

[Mr. Paul]

It can get a little frustrating to step outside of what feels natural to you.

Shortly before Chuck Pyle passed away recently, I bought one of his songbooks from him. Recently decided to learn one of his tunes note for note and his fingerings and timing are very different to what "feels right." Hammering it out measure by measure it's coming together a bit. Pretty sure that I'll come out a little better player on the other side, but there's a pretty good dose of tedium involved before getting there.

Bit by bit I will learn the fingering and then go back to the original recording to get the timing right.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by phxguy

I am trying to learn "The Circle Game" as Joni Mitchell played it in open G and have purchased the lesson from Jerry's Guitar Bar which is very good. I have never attempted to learn a song in this fashion with this detail and the picking pattern varies somewhat from bar to bar. In the past when I wanted to learn a song I got the chords and figured out an arrangement that suited me. I am really struggling with trying to copy the patterns and making it sound like the way it is meant to sound in terms of timing (I am way too slow). For those of you that have been through this process what has worked for you? Should I just try to memorize all the patterns and then concentrate on timing or is there a better way to go about it? By the way, when I play it the way I hear it without the tabs I get the melody in there and timing is pretty good but that's not the way I want to do it so that is very frustrating.

Thanks so much!

If the patterns vary in the original (ie on the same chords), then it's worth learning each one, but not worth playing each one the same.
It's typical with this style of fingerpicking to more or less randomly arpeggiate the chord, and the precise order of notes - the particular strings picked at each moment - may not matter.
That is, I'd look at the amount of variation, and see what changes and what doesn't (when the same chords come around). Obviously I'd keep anything that didn't change, but feel free to use a similar kind of variety that the original does. I.e., play in the same spirit as the original.
I'd also make sure that it felt comfortable and natural under my fingers -it's silly to try and master some tricky detail that's trivial in the grand scheme of things.
In this case, there's a kind of rhythmic pattern to the fingerpicking that feels important, but the actual strings picked feels less important. I would just get the chord shapes right, and the rhythmic feel - and then as many of the actual patterns played as felt comfortable or natural. IOW, I'd learn all the original patterns, but only in order to make a reasonable selection that I felt comfortable with.
I like to know exactly what Joni did; but I feel no obligation to do the same.

You always have to remember that the melody (the vocal) is what matters. The guitar part is only an accompaniment.

[phxguy]

Thank you both for your replies! Jerry tabs out each bar as Joni played it and I will take it 2 bars at a time until I get those down before moving on.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by phxguy

Thank you both for your replies! Jerry tabs out each bar as Joni played it and I will take it 2 bars at a time until I get those down before moving on.

I was just going to suggest that.

I have his lesson on Clapton's "Before You Accuse Me" which is very good.

[CarryOn]

When learning something note-for-note, I learn it in short phrases, each one separately, and once I have those down, I start over, so to speak, and practice stringing them all together.

I think this works for me because there are two things being learned; the patterns, and then the song as a whole. I love to cook, and I think of it as a recipe. Before I can make a good sauce, I have to know how to chop onions and peel tomatoes. Those are two separate things (like patterns in a song), but they go together in order to get the sauce (the song in its entirety).

[Hotspur]

One thing that will help is developing your ear.

Part of why these kind of subtle variations are difficult is that, if our ears are untrained, we don't hear them with a lot of specificity. We're just sort of vaguely aware that various notes are being played. Developing your ear helps you hear every note distinctly and specifically.

It's really hard to memorize something as a series of finger movements. It's much, much easier to memorize it as a series of sounds - think of how you'd instantly know if you played a strummed song you knew "wrong" by playing an F instead of a C, right? When you play it you're not thinking "okay, index finger goes on the fifth string, third fret ..."

But with a complex fingerpicking pattern, if your ear isn't that good, that's what you end up doing. "Okay, first I pluck this, then I hammer on that, then I - "

That's no way to play music. Even if you do memorize it, it'll have a hard time sticking. One analogy I like to use is to think about memorizing Hamlet's monolog not according to the words, meaning, and context, but according to the SPELLING. Tee oh space bee eee space oh are space enn oh tee space ... nobody would ever do that. But that's what you're doing when you memorize a song by finger positions.

[Andreas Fischer]

Thats how i learn fingerstyle arangements ... note for note

i start playing by reading from tabs, note for note
most times i just get the first 2 or 3 notes when i beginn, than more and more notes, .... and when i can play through the whole piece by reading, i play it again and again by reaqding untill i can play it from memory .... that last step takes a long time, specialy when the arangement isnt easy

so repetition is my key and it works very slowly

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by CarryOn

When learning something note-for-note, I learn it in short phrases, each one separately, and once I have those down, I start over, so to speak, and practice stringing them all together.

That's how I do it, pretty much. It's a mechanical process of finger training, committing it to muscle memory in stages, through constant repetition of each small section.

Of course, that's not "music" - not yet. But it's only when you have it firmly and confidently under your fingers that you can actually turn it into a musical performance. You can't be expressive if you're always having to think about where your fingers are going.

That's why they say: "practise until you get it right. And then practise some more until you can't get it wrong." That's the point at which it becomes "music", because that's when you become free to add "feeling".

[hovishead]

I would check out some live performances of Joni doing it. If she plays the tune note for note the same, then it's probably worth doing it that way. If not (which I think is probably more likely), then I'd work out what some of the patterns she uses are (by listening to multiple recordings of Joni doing it on Youtube) then try using each of those patterns in turn to play through the chords.

After a while of doing this, you'll probably find that when you listen to her playing it again, it doesn't sound nearly as daunting and anything cool sounding that she's doing (and you are not) will be all the more clearer for you to pick up on.

Generally I stay away from reading music when it comes to memorizing stuff. I memorize music by ear far easier (although everyone is different). If you sing/hum along with each note you play it will probably stick a lot easier than by trying to remember how it looked on a page.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by hovishead

I would check out some live performances of Joni doing it.

Yes, that's the other really useful check. If you can find different performances by the original artist, that always puts the concept of "perfection" in perspective.

[Paraclete]

Originally Posted by hovishead

I would check out some live performances of Joni doing it. If she plays the tune note for note the same, then it's probably worth doing it that way. If not (which I think is probably more likely), then I'd work out what some of the patterns she uses are (by listening to multiple recordings of Joni doing it on Youtube) then try using each of those patterns in turn to play through the chords.

Absolutely. I was thinking about the various stuff I do at church...mostly a violin thing, but it applies...for certain songs, there are some things I do the same way,nearly note-for-note each time. But if I'm not regurgitating something that I usually do, it's at least along the same lines melodically. When I play fingerstyle guitar, those picking patterns can be all over the map, but there are parts that stay the same, more or less. That is what is helpful to listen for in live vs studio recordings. What is the root of the song? That is what you need to listen for before you attempt to exactly copy something that was likely done fairly unconsciously. It really will help when you go to break it down note for note.