Do you ever really hear yourself ?

[rick-slo]

I started on piano at an early age. I was working on classical pieces. I wasn't trying to emulate anyone but was just trying to learn the techniques and nuts and bolts of piano playing. I next took up 5 string banjo about age 14 after I got interested in bluegrass watching the "Beverly Hillbillies" on TV. I really like Doug Dillard's banjo playing, though I can't say I was trying to emulate him. I just liked and still like bluegrass music. When I took up guitar in the mid 1960s it was to study classical guitar music. Again, it was more of just liking the music than being a fan of any particular artist. Studying classical you are usually learning music pretty much note for note (based on what transcription you might have). Not often is the performance I have heard by the actual composer of the music. So again I was more tied to the music itself and any particular artist. After a long break in playing any instrument and starting up on fingerstyle guitar music over the last couple of years I have listened to various players who had different styles I liked and I have looked in to their approaches. Having had a bag of techniques going into it I found it more to my liking to write my own music, which is about all I play now.
I do feel that your USUAL beginning guitarist, and even a beginning-intermediate guitarist, is probably best served by not trying to be his own unique self, but by studying pretty strictly the techniques of other guitarists who play the style of music he likes. There is a heck of a lot to learn from the specifics in style and techniques of accomplished players. Once you get a broader perspective from a few miles under your belt and have some basics in technique you can evolve into your own distinctive style should you wish.
Rick

[bagelsgirl]

I never consciously tried to develop my own style. I just tried to learn other people's songs the best way I could, in the way I thought I could best do them justice.

I didn't try to learn them exactly like the original artist, but I tried not to change them so much that a listener might think I had "ruined" them. But I never had any problem with changing the keys, or adapting them to suit my voice, or using different picking or fingerstyle patterns that I felt more comfortable with, etc.

Sometimes I'll hear a song that I learned years ago and then had never heard by the original artist again. I'll often be surprised that I seem to have put my own "mark" on the tune.

People tell me I have my own style now. I'm not sure I recognize it, I don't even know if I could tell you what specific choices I make that characterize it, but I'm sure that it evolved over years of just learning a song the way I could best pull it off, while trying to play up my areas of strength, and minimizing showing my areas of weakness...

[Guyute]

Well, I'll tell you folks this. I do sing the songs the same way the original artist did and I am unabashedly unashamed of that. I certainly don't play them the same way, just because I tend to use fingerings that are better for me in most cases. But I do notice a certain amount of scorn among other musicians not only for people who try to be true to the original, but for people who play covers in general. I don't particularly care for the attitude that if you don't write and perform your own material, that you're some kind of hack.

Actually, as far as I can tell, no one in this thread has done that, so please don't think I'm ranting at anyone here. But I do find that sort of elitism runs rampant in the world of performing musicians and I don't care for it. I'm certainly not trying to be anyone but myself out there.

[bagelsgirl]

Originally Posted by Guyute

Well, I'll tell you folks this. I do sing the songs the same way the original artist did and I am unabashedly unashamed of that. I certainly don't play them the same way, just because I tend to use fingerings that are better for me in most cases. But I do notice a certain amount of scorn among other musicians not only for people who try to be true to the original, but for people who play covers in general. I don't particularly care for the attitude that if you don't write and perform your own material, that you're some kind of hack.

Actually, as far as I can tell, no one in this thread has done that, so please don't think I'm ranting at anyone here. But I do find that sort of elitism runs rampant in the world of performing musicians and I don't care for it. I'm certainly not trying to be anyone but myself out there.

Hooray for you! I'm with you 100% on this one!

I'm very proud to tell people that I take requests and that I do mostly covers.

I know exactly what you mean about the attitude that some musicians have. They seem to think that if a musician doesn't play either originals or very obscure covers, that they aren't as "artistic" or as "creative" as they should be. I think it is nonsense!

I once heard that another musician had tried to insult me by telling someone that, "she just plays what the audience wants to hear." I remember laughing about that one with my husband! I play what the audience wants to hear? Gosh. Was I confused about my job description, or what?

I mean, it's cool to be artistic. Or obscure, if you like.

I understand that some people don't personally like playing certain types of music, and nobody should make themselves sick by playing popular covers, if they really hate doing it. But those same people can't really complain if they work less often, either.

And if a person writes great originals, that's awesome! But there are so many artists that I admire that don't write; they are just great performers. I'd rather hear a great performance of a good cover than hear a so-so original song any day!

That's not to say that we all agree on whose original songs are good and whose aren't. Somebody might love stuff that I wrote, somebody else will hate it. But hey, I happen to like doing covers. I mix in my originals when I feel like it. Or when it is appropriate, or when I am asked for one. Playing a lot of covers is fun! And playing songs that people recognize pleases more of the audience more of the time.... it just makes sense.

[dthumb]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Howard...
Very helpful. I often assign them the piece and tell them I don't want to hear it for 6 weeks, and let them change keys, arrangements etc. Most just change the order a bit and regurgitate it to me.

It's nice when somebody writes and intro and an ending, and maybe even a solo, and I think your 1 or 2 in 50 having that extra spark of creativity sounds about right.

I just hope that they are not being intimidated because they are not as good as me or the person who wrote the song as you mentioned. They seem to think fledgling efforts are to be leapt over in their process of learning. I appreciate your suggestions concerning playing known music in another time meter or perhaps a different key (tuning?).

Gonna try some of those. I have some creative folks working on guitar right now.

I teach standard thumb and three finger - fingerstyle playing, with a mixture of fingerpicking, strumming, plucking. I write the lessons individually for each student shoring up the strong points to keep them strong while we build (or re-build) the weaker areas.

Most of my students are intermediate and highly desirous of playing at an advanced level. Many of them make their first quality instrument purchase during the time we work together. Most are young adults and come every other week for 90 minutes.

Most don't know how to read, and have never done scales or etudes. I focus in on and teach them to know 5 keys thoroughly. Keys of C - D - E - G - A and how to capo from there.

The best I always block out 2 hours for. Most bring digital note takers, note books and several video cameras. Right not out of a dozen students, 10 are worship musicians on local teams from 7 different churches. In addition I'm coaching two Worship Teams and mentoring worship leaders from 3 churches (about 2/3 playing and arranging and 1/3 dialogue).

Love doing it, and want these folk to exceed their wildest dreams.

it is to hear a teacher concerned about the "few" who would like to "make it their own". As a young piano student at 12 years old I chose, for a recital to play, if I remember correctly, the required Chopin piece. We were allowed to pick another to perform of our own choosing. I chose to play a peice I had written.A rather loose Bach with jazz overtones piece that offered a great deal of improvisation opportunity. The other students were mezmerized. The other teachers were astounded. My parents and the few attendant observers were delighted but, my teacher, I'm sorry to say, was furious and hyper-critical. I was utterly reduced to tears. Needless to say, when another instructor offered to take up my cause I left her immediately. My parents could not afford the new instructor's fees so I continued on my own. Perhaps that was a good thing, perhaps not. It certainly slowed what could have been a rapid rise in my developement. Took years instead of months to get to where I needed to be.
While "classical" training is a tremendous tool for learning the skills of the trade we should never "squash" an ambitious effort or fledgling talent. A little encouragement goes a long way. Who knows? You may be teaching the next " Jimi Hendrix" or "Keith Jarrett".
Thank you for having the presence of mind to realize this. I think some instructors are even a bit "intimidated" by a talented student. You , obviously are not.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Guyute

...But I do notice a certain amount of scorn among other musicians not only for people who try to be true to the original, but for people who play covers in general. I don't particularly care for the attitude that if you don't write and perform your own material, that you're some kind of hack.

Actually, as far as I can tell, no one in this thread has done that, so please don't think I'm ranting at anyone here. But I do find that sort of elitism runs rampant in the world of performing musicians and I don't care for it. I'm certainly not trying to be anyone but myself out there.

Yeah, I know what you are saying. Amongst lead guitar types there's the speed thing which is exactly the same. It's a macho gunslinger mentality. I'll tell you the truth: I was a slow learner. even though I worked really hard at developing, I spent a good portion of my early guitar days motivated by fear of embarrassment and being shown up, rather than by my love of the music.

Somewhere along the line I changed focus, though. By the way, these days when I play out, I mostly play old blues tunes. Most of these old blues tunes are great vehicles for the improv thing. Funny, huh? I do occasionally play fingerstyle gigs where I get to trot out some of my own compositions but I actually enjoy the band scene and doing blues covers more.

Bob


Bob

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Guyute

Well, I'll tell you folks this. I do sing the songs the same way the original artist did and I am unabashedly unashamed of that. I certainly don't play them the same way, just because I tend to use fingerings that are better for me in most cases.

Hi Guyute...
Thanks for holding me in check...& forcing me to clarify.

I heard you use the word ''sing'' and I don't teach singing I teach people to play guitar...well hopefully. There is a difference in playing and singing songs like originals.

I'm not opposed to people holding true to the original and doing covers. What I'm complaining about is the kind of teaching which breeds clones instead of musicians. These musicians grow up believing they have failed if they do not perform songs ''perfectly'' as per the original (whatever perfectly means).

I am not biased against musicians who choose to perform note for note. It is a different sand pile than I play in.

I suspect if we play a song for more than a year on a regular basis it has ''me'' stamped all over it anyway. If we arrange a song which was recorded by a band and not a solo artist, we are already modifying it to adjust for the lack of a band or orchestra.

I appreciate the fact you have the skill & desire to elect to play covers faithful to the original...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

...Funny, huh? I do occasionally play fingerstyle gigs where I get to trot out some of my own compositions but I actually enjoy the band scene and doing blues covers more.

Hi Bob...
Boy there is the band and playing rhythm lead that I just love. And there are solo gigs with original stuff I enjoy a lot too.

But my favorite is gigging with one other guitarist and doing improvisational duet work and singing as well. It is my favorite. Two can create so well while not competing and overfilling the air with notes (though we do overfill it ocassionally).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Bern

Larry,
I know now that you teach, but I would be very interested in your creativity and your thoughts. For a moment, forget what you teach others. What are your wildest dreams ?
Bernie

Hi Bern...
I am such a laid back guy that I'm not sure ''wildest'' fits.

It would be pure heaven to have two years to take my playing to a new level of skill and to refine my writing and arranging.

I play ''loose'' and it would be good for me to know the neck better and absorb a lot of what I ''know.''

One of my dreams has happened and it was to find another person who musically was equal but style was different enough to form a duo. My gigging partner is an accomplished bassist and pretty good cross picker.

Our styles and musical thoughts mesh well, and we play every week for 2 1/2 hours at a local coffee house plus three mornings a week in the living room for an hour.

It has been good for both of us because we bring different backgrounds to the table, and push each other. We are in the process of preparing to record some of the stuff we are doing...test recordings show us a bit ''busy'' but having fun.

[Guyute]

I'm glad no one thought I was pointing fingers here. And I agree, it's foolish to try to live up to the standard of being just like another artist. There's no way you're ever going to do that unless you're writing the same stuff at the same time they are!

I had just been annoyed recently by someone who posted to another forum I sometimes frequent. The gist of the post was that if you play any covers, you're not being a musician.

I just felt like it was time to set the record straight on the matter of playing covers.

[bagelsgirl]

Originally Posted by Guyute

I had just been annoyed recently by someone who posted to another forum I sometimes frequent. The gist of the post was that if you play any covers, you're not being a musician.

I ran into a friend a while back who plays gigs around town. He mostly does his own stuff, and some obscure foksy, bluegrassy old timey covers... He remarked, "I don't take requests, and I am d*mned proud to say so!" I just laughed and say, "all right then!"

[dthumb]

Originally Posted by Guyute

I'm glad no one thought I was pointing fingers here. And I agree, it's foolish to try to live up to the standard of being just like another artist. There's no way you're ever going to do that unless you're writing the same stuff at the same time they are!

I had just been annoyed recently by someone who posted to another forum I sometimes frequent. The gist of the post was that if you play any covers, you're not being a musician.

I just felt like it was time to set the record straight on the matter of playing covers.

I musta missed something...
I didn't know anyone was degrading people who play covers. Like I said, I do, but I rearrange them...turn country into jazz, blues into swing, change keys, all sorts of things. I'm always amazed by folks who "sound like the record" and wonder..."how 'd he do that?" and then."why'd he do that?"..I don;t have the patience for that, myself...or the interest. But, cudos to those who do.

[dthumb]

Originally Posted by bagelsgirl

I ran into a friend a while back who plays gigs around town. He mostly does his own stuff, and some obscure foksy, bluegrassy old timey covers... He remarked, "I don't take requests, and I am d*mned proud to say so!" I just laughed and say, "all right then!"

I think you've just touched on a major difference in mind set..."musicianship" vs "performance"...both have their merits...I guess its all in what YOU want from your music. I love a player who can do requests. I would, myself (and do sometimes) but with the way I muck with songs nobody'd recognize them..heheheh

[Guyute]

Originally Posted by dthumb

I musta missed something...I didn't know anyone was degrading people who play covers.

No, actually, it wasn't in this thread that people were doing that. This thread just brought it to mind for me. Personally, if you don't take requests, that's cool with me. Play your own stuff and more power to you. But don't begrudge people their fun in playing songs they like...oh, and that they've got some tips in the jar

Originally Posted by dthumb

...Like I said, I do, but I rearrange them...turn country into jazz, blues into swing, change keys, all sorts of things...

I do that too. Just not on purpose

[dthumb]

Originally Posted by Guyute

I do that too. Just not on purpose

I actually do it on purpose...pick songs that I think would sound cool played another way. Annoys some of my player friends. That makes it even more fun!!!