My Tonedexter and Anthem SL Experience

[RonD]

Is anyone else using the Tonedexter with an LR Baggs Anthem SL pickup?

I have the Anthem SL in my Martin 000-18 (Custom with Adi top).

I bought one of the first Tonedexters, hoping it would further improve my already acceptable tone (I've had some good success running the Martin through a Fishman Platinum Pro and then into a Play Acoustic (with Bodyrez) for the past couple of years). With the promise of Tonedexter producing more natural acoustic tone, I jumped in on the first batch.

I've had the Tonedexter for just under two months and have played 3 shows with it. I've tried creating multiple Wavemaps (using both an MAudio Sputnik LDC as well as an SM57 mic), and I just haven't been able to get the sound I want (my guitar...just amplified). Overall, I consistently end up with a tone that sounds "hollow" in the area of the low mids to mid frequencies. Accordingly, I've then had to implement some serious parametric EQ cuts in my QSC Touchmix 8 to get a workable sound. Even then, depending on the venue, I'd be making further adjustments at the gigs (to add, I'm feeding the output of the Touchmix into a JBL Eon One).

Unfortunately, I don't have a small diaphragm condenser mic (as AudioSprockets recommends) to create the Wavemaps. Although, I've heard examples where the trusty SM57 produced a good usable tone. I've also been in bands for 25+ years and have a degree in sound recording technology, so my experience/skills with mic placement should be decent enough to make this work. I've tried multiple mic positions (close/far, angled, above, below, etc.), trying different phase settings across the TD and Play Acoustic, as well as tweaks to the Anthem mic level setting and have simply spent way too many hours trying everything to make decent Wavemaps (or to further EQ a Wavemap).

In general, I think the Anthem SL can tend to sound somewhat "hollow" on it's own, although dialing in the mic level can help alleviate some of that issue (at the expense of low end). I think this is somehow negatively affecting the Wavemap tone. I guess I'm just not yet sold that the Tonedexter plays well with a UST+mic-based pickup (or, more specifically with the Anthem). It's frustrating, especially when I hear the success that others seem to have with it (especially when using other pickups like the K&K or Trance). I'm also not looking to go down the rabbit hole of installing different pickups just to see if I can get the Tonedexter to work better for me.

Maybe it's just me?

For now, I've reverted back to using my Fishman Platinum Pro EQ. I will say that the Fishman adds a very "hi-fi" quality to the tone, which I'm also not a huge fan of (and hence why I wanted to try the Tonedexter). However, it seems to be more easily dialed in and largely eliminates the UST quack from the Anthem's UST.

Has anyone else had any luck with a Tonedexter/Anthem combination?
If so, any suggestions? Otherwise, I may likely look to sell the Tonedexter in the coming week(s).

[lkingston]

Have you tried it with the mic in the Anthem all the way off? The internal mic and the Tonedexter are trying to do the same thing. I would use one or the other.

[RonD]

Tried this last night, although I didn't fully kill the Anthem mic (maybe had it at 15-20%...guessing). May give that one more try before abandoning. Even at that level, I was surprised at some harsh overtones I was getting in the upper mids-highs.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by lkingston

Have you tried it with the mic in the Anthem all the way off? The internal mic and the Tonedexter are trying to do the same thing. I would use one or the other.

If you turn the mic all the way off on the Anthem SL, you don't get the full frequency response of the Element because of the crossover design of the Anthem SL. So that wouldn't work very well at all....

[RonD]

Thanks Andy. That's what I thought too. Ugh.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by RonD

It's frustrating, especially when I hear the success that others seem to have with it

There is the "honeymoon" effect to consider. I have been around long enough to see pick-ups etc. hailed as the second coming only to see them in the "for sale" section a year later.

Steve

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by RonD

Although, I've heard examples where the trusty SM57 produced a good usable tone. I've also been in bands for 25+ years and have a degree in sound recording technology, so my experience/skills with mic placement should be decent enough to make this work. I've tried multiple mic positions (close/far, angled, above, below, etc.), trying different phase settings across the TD and Play Acoustic, as well as tweaks to the Anthem mic level setting and have simply spent way too many hours trying everything to make decent Wavemaps (or to further EQ a Wavemap).

The mix placement that was eventually the winner for me was a Neumann KM184 over the 12th fret angled almost straight down.

My point is this: you're kind of chasing frequency responses with the training, so if you have one that's tinny, move the mic up to the bass strings; if you have one that's midrangey, move the mic closer and maybe to the soundhole. In other words, move the mic toward the part of the guitar creating the sound you think is missing.

I think the second time I trained it, I spent about 4 hours with the TD hooked up to my PA in my living room.

Best of luck.

[James May]

Originally Posted by AndyC

If you turn the mic all the way off on the Anthem SL, you don't get the full frequency response of the Element because of the crossover design of the Anthem SL. So that wouldn't work very well at all....

We haven't tried the Anthem with ToneDexter here in the lab. From what I can gather, this crossover design might very well be problematic for ToneDexter to deal with.

The issue is a bit complex to describe: because there is a crossover region where information is coming from both sources, the timing and phase differences between the two are likely to be confusing the training algorithm which would result in a hollow sound.

In general, dual source pickup systems with internal mics work best with ToneDexter when the internal mic is completely disabled. As has been mentioned, you can't really do that with the Anthem SL.

Our recommendation is to use a simpler pickup, either a regular UST such as the Element or Matrix, or one of the SBTs such as KK, JJB, Amulet.

[jonesysam]

Had the same issue. Went directly into the qsc from tonedexter bypassing acoustic play and it made a big difference.

[guitaniac]

Its probably not a good omen (for a ToneDexter/Anthem SL combo) that folks seem to be getting much better results from the ToneDexter/Pure Mini combo than from the ToneDexter/Baggs Lyric combo. If memory serves correctly, two or three ToneDexter users have already swapped out the Lyric for the Pure Mini.


I personally use a Zoom A3 to deal with my Anthem SL, because it has enough EQ flexibility to deal with the adjustments needed. (I use the A3's six band graphic EQ and its two band parametric EQ in series. With those two EQs being used for my usual Anthem SL EQ adjustments, I still have the A3's manual three band EQ available for any "quick and dirty" adjustments needed at the gig.)

In the case of my own Anthem SL rig, I have to reduce some brittle sounding highs a bit in addition to cutting considerable low mids around the crossover frequency of 250Hz. The results are very pleasing to me. Your mileage may vary.

I should add that a simple Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer can also do a pretty decent job of EQing my Anthem SL rig. The big advantage of the A3 has been that its volume control is much smoother and more fine-tunable than the volume controls on either the GE-7 or the Anthem SL system itself.

[RonD]

Thanks Jonesysam. I have done this as well (running straight from Tonedexter into the Touchmix8). Agreed that this improved the results/tone, but I still have this "hollow" sound that I can't seem to fully shake. I think it has to do with the Anthem SL, as running directly from my guitar into the JBL EON One also produces some level of a hollow sound (depending on how the mic-balance is set). I have also tried running two channels (one directly from Tonedexter balanced out, and the second from the Play Acoustic DI out (Play Acoustic being fed from the 1/4" out on the Tonedexter). It was interesting to mix these two together, and I had some success but it still didn't remove the hollow sound (with this approach you also need to be aware of the phase settings across both the Tonedexter and Play Acoustic). Also, the Play Acoustic definitely does change the tone even with the Bodyrez settings turned completely off.

Guitaniac, I've tweaked the PEQ in both the Play Acoustic and the QSC to dial in the best sound possible. Although, it starts to get challenging to do this when the changes in the Play Acoustic need to be edited across 20+ patches. Like you, it seems like I need a couple of deeps cuts around the low-mids, and then some reduction in the highs.

I have been contemplating changing the pickup. I'm going to test the Tonedexter with my playing partner's Seagull dreadnought tomorrow night (with UST only) and how it sounds.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by RonD

I have been contemplating changing the pickup. I'm going to test the Tonedexter with my playing partner's Seagull dreadnought tomorrow night (with UST only) and how it sounds.

Please let us know how the Seagull experiment works out.

[martingitdave]

I'm not convinced yet that using impulse response convolution to make one internal mic sound like another external mic is going to be ultimately reliable enough to gig with. I think using a simple pickup with the Tonedexter would make more sense in theory. The downside is that you are stuck with a lousy pickup if you aren't using your Tonedexter. The next best thing seems to be using the Tonedexter with a decent SBT style pickup from K&K or Trance, both of which are great in my opinion. That way you get "gig-able" sound from the dry pickup and it only gets better when you fire up your Tonedexter. I decided to take the plunge into IR through the Fishman Aura F1 Plus system in my Martin HD28E Retro. In this case, I get the same "Tondexter" performance wherever I go, and with whatever I plug into.

[RonD]

Tried the Tonedexter with my playing partner's Seagull dreadnought equipped with their QIT pickup (a pretty decent pickup BTW). After creating a very quick Wavemap, the Tonedexter does a very nice job of eliminating the quack (as promised) and returning more of a natural sound to the amplified tone. It sounded great with the simpler UST pickup in the Seagull.

I also tried the various "Character" knob settings, and the first position (all the way counter-clockwise) seemed to be my favorite. The tone seemed to retain the most "attack" on initial note plucks, but without the quack. The other character settings, while good, lessened that attack and seemed to let in a slight airiness (almost a very slight "hollow" sound) into the attack of each note. It still sounded good in those settings but I kept coming back to the first setting of the Character knob. Perhaps more experimentation with mic placement, etc. during the Wavemap training process would help with this.

Before buying the Anthem I had wanted to go with the Trance Amulet but had heard that the acoustic lenses would likely not fit the bridge plate in the new 000-18 due to the braces being right at the edge of the bridge plate. Further, my long-trusted luthier had no experience installing the Trance so wasn't comfortable with trying it on a new guitar. Has anyone installed the Trance in a new 000-18? I'd also consider the Dazzo...but the effort to rip out the Anthem and then deal with the epoxy install is not something I'm looking forward to.

So, here I am with a Tonedexter that won't really work with my Anthem SL. I could look at installing a different/simpler UST (what's the current favorite?). Although I've got the Anthem working pretty well with the Platinum Pro so I may opt to keep it simple, just play the guitar, and shelve the Tonedexter idea for now. Decisions, decisions.

[RonD]

Or maybe I take martingitdave's suggestion and consider adding a Martin Retro to my stable...ha ha.