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  #31  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Joe Barbieri Joe Barbieri is offline
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[QUOTE=sdelsolray;1206487]I had hoped Fishman would upgrade the analog and digital circuity in the Aura, which would certainly improve the sound. Instead, Fishman has dumbed down the Aura to even lower price points. It would appear Fishman is more interested in making money than in making excellent gear.QUOTE]

Our circuitry, bit rate, signal/noise ratio etc; is actually improved in the Imaging pedals and forthcoming products over the original Imaging Blender specs. We didn’t dumb down the technology, we actually made it better and paired it with a simpler, less expensive interface for this particular product. The specs are on our website for those that want to get it right. The Imaging, not the interface, is the technology. The circuitry and layout of product specs are simply a vehicle to get you into the technology. These products will live in different price points depending on features and will therefore appeal to different customers. As for the statement that we are more interested in making money than excellent gear.....please. These are the kind of statements that make the entire forum look bad. An opinion like that was not solicited in the thread nor is it in any way helpful. It is simply an off-subject negative comment that cannot be defended as anything other than that. It is also 100% incorrect.

Joe B.
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Last edited by Joe Barbieri; 06-21-2007 at 02:40 PM. Reason: signature
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  #32  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:23 PM
Jerrysimon Jerrysimon is offline
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OMG Fishman are watching

Fair points though lol

Regards

Jerry
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  #33  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:32 PM
Joe Barbieri Joe Barbieri is offline
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Thanks Jerry, just trying to keep it accurate.

JB
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  #34  
Old 06-21-2007, 01:24 PM
Eastmeadow Mike Eastmeadow Mike is offline
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Figures you'd show up when the Fishman bashing began.
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  #35  
Old 06-21-2007, 01:54 PM
Jerrysimon Jerrysimon is offline
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Joe,

Seeing as your here perhaps you could tell me if the Aura will work with a Rare Earth (Magnetic) Pickup, or is it optimised for use with a UST only ?

Regards

Jerry
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  #36  
Old 06-21-2007, 02:41 PM
Joe Barbieri Joe Barbieri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrysimon View Post
Joe,

Seeing as your here perhaps you could tell me if the Aura will work with a Rare Earth (Magnetic) Pickup, or is it optimised for use with a UST only ?

Regards

Jerry
Works fine with the Rare Earth Jerry. Active magnetic pickups will drive the Image as effectively as an undersaddle.

JB
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  #37  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:24 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Barbieri View Post
Works fine with the Rare Earth Jerry. Active magnetic pickups will drive the Image as effectively as an undersaddle.

JB

If that's the case, Joe, why won't Fishman create custom sound images for mag-equipped guitars? Has that policy changed?

BTW, its interesting to learn that some of the Aura technology has been improved upon since the original Aura preamp. I hope this applies to the new Aura Ellipse as well as the new pedals.

On the subject of the new Aura Ellipse system, will the onboard preamp have adjustable gain, as the onboard Aura's preamp does?

Gary
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  #38  
Old 06-21-2007, 07:18 PM
Brackett Instruments Brackett Instruments is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
.................................................. .................
On the subject of the new Aura Ellipse system, will the onboard preamp have adjustable gain, as the onboard Aura's preamp does?

Gary
The Aura Ellipse has adjustable gain. There's a trim pot you can adjust with a small screwdriver. I've got an Aura Ellipse in my Martin D18V. It varies day to day whether my D18V with the Aura or my Guild with a Dtar Wavelength is my favorite for gigging.
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  #39  
Old 06-21-2007, 09:19 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody b View Post
The Aura Ellipse has adjustable gain. There's a trim pot you can adjust with a small screwdriver. I've got an Aura Ellipse in my Martin D18V. It varies day to day whether my D18V with the Aura or my Guild with a Dtar Wavelength is my favorite for gigging.
Putting the variable of the guitars aside, you'd need to run the Wavelength signal thru a Mama Bear for a fairer comparison. If the Wavelength sans Mama is holding its own against the Fishman film UST system with Aura, its doing pretty well.


Thanks, Woody - for the info on the Aura Ellipse's adjustable gain and for the observation that its hard to choose a favorite between the Fishman-equipped Martin and the DTAR-equipped Guild.

Gary
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  #40  
Old 06-22-2007, 12:07 AM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Barbieri View Post
Our circuitry, bit rate, signal/noise ratio etc; is actually improved in the Imaging pedals and forthcoming products over the original Imaging Blender specs. We didn’t dumb down the technology, we actually made it better and paired it with a simpler, less expensive interface for this particular product. The specs are on our website for those that want to get it right. The Imaging, not the interface, is the technology. The circuitry and layout of product specs are simply a vehicle to get you into the technology. These products will live in different price points depending on features and will therefore appeal to different customers. As for the statement that we are more interested in making money than excellent gear.....please. These are the kind of statements that make the entire forum look bad. An opinion like that was not solicited in the thread nor is it in any way helpful. It is simply an off-subject negative comment that cannot be defended as anything other than that. It is also 100% incorrect.
Joe B.
Fishman
I need to apologize for the inappropriate comment about Fishman. You guys know what you're doing in your markets and it makes sense for Fishman to spread the core imaging technology to allow more sales. I just wish you guys would either (1) upscale the non-imaging components to truly pro (audio) levels (i.e., an Aura Pro) and/or (2) release the imagining technology as a software plugin for ProTools, Logic, etc.

I did take a look at the several published specs for the three Aura products, which can be found in the respective .pdf manuals on your website (a few other specs can be found floating around the Fishman site). I would like to discuss three of those specs: (i) noise, (ii) dynamic range and (iii) 24 bit converters.

1) Signal to noise: You indicated that the second generation Aura products (Pedal and Ellipse) have lower noise. The specs bear this out. The published signal to noise specs for the three products are as follows:

Blender: -74dBu, 20Hz to 20kHz, A-weighted
Pedal: -92dBV, A-weighted
Ellipse: -92dBV (A-weighted)

The lower the number, the better. At first look, it would appear that the noise spec has been improved by 18 dB, which is a significant amount. However, the Blender's spec is stated in "dBu" and the Pedal's and Ellipse's specs are stated in "dBV". Those are different reference systems and the numbers associated with them cannot be compared equally. It's apples and oranges. The dBu reference system is used for professional gear. The dBV system in generally used for consumer gear. Converting one to the other allows an "apples to apples" comparison.

2) Dynamic Range: The dynamic range published for the Pedal and Ellipse is 94dB. That's basically the range between the noise floor and the onset of clipping. The dynamic range of the Blender is not published (at least I couldn't find it anywhere), nor can it be deduced from other specs. The Raven Labs PMB II is about 104dB (I had to do some math based on their specs, not my best subject), the D-TAR Solistice is 108dB and the Pendulum Audio SPS-1 is 114dB. The $99 M-Audio 2496 soundcard has a dynamic range of 100dB. Every 6dB of increase doubles the voltage/volume of the signal/sound.

3) Converters: The Pedal and Ellipse use 24 bit converters. The sample rate is not published (my guess is it's either 44.1kHz or 48kHz). Presumably the Blender uses 16 bit converters, but I could not find a published spec. One would think that 24 bit converters are better than 16 bit converters, all other things being equal. And that would be true, provided the dynamic range of the unit can take advantage of the upper 8 bits (bits 17-24). As you know, the bit rate of a converter handles only the dynamic range of the signal. Each bit is responsible for 6db of the dynamic range. A 16 bit converter can handle a dynamic range of 96dB. A 24 bit converter can handle a dynamic range of 144dB. Since the dynamic range of the Fishman Pedal and Ellispe is only 94dB, they will never use the upper 8 bits of a 24 bit converter, unless the signal is clipping to begin with. A 16 bit converter would work fine, given the dynamic range. These days 24 bit converters are the norm. Indeed, 16 bit converters may be harder to source. So switching to 24 bit converters probably makes sense. Whether it helps anything in the Aura is another issue. Other gear certainly takes advantage of 24 bit converters.

Again, I apologize for digging against Fishman and the Aura. Some of us are skeptics. But, as you indicted, it's appropriate to set things right, at least in a realative sense. I guess I'm also a bit frustrated and saddened. The core imaging technology has such promise. If only Fishman were to surround that with quality (but mundane) analog and digital circuitry, you guys would make some of us very happy.

BTW, for those that have tortured themselves to read though this diatribe, take a look at the following RaneNote, which is an honest and revealing discussion of audio specifications:

http://rane.com/note145.html

Last edited by sdelsolray; 06-22-2007 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Spelling, grammar; corrections
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  #41  
Old 06-22-2007, 03:16 AM
zsimmen zsimmen is offline
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Do what sounds best... plug them both in and play (simultaneously wouldn't be simple)... I was faced with this decision a few months ago and went with the 07 ES but the Aura sounded good too but I liked the simplicity and the sound especially of the ES... I just think no opinion at this point (since narrowing it down to 2 choices) will sway your decision more than testing these suckers out... I even went as far as bringing in my own PA system to the store to see what it sounded like cause I didn't trust the Acoustic Crate amp he had me plugging into... Good Luck and follow your ears man
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  #42  
Old 06-22-2007, 04:57 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
BTW, for those that have tortured themselves to read though this diatribe, take a look at the following RaneNote, which is an honest and revealing discussion of audio specifications:

http://rane.com/note145.html
Translation: Here's some real torture for you, for you masochistic types who've only had your appetites whetted by the preceeding rant. LOL - I enjoyed the rant, but that Rane "note" is a little more than I can handle at the moment.

I do think, sdelsolray, that you were right to apologize. It seemed to me that you were criticizing Fishman for not ignoring market realities to make higher quality (and necessarily more expensive) gear for a very limited market. Personally, I'd expect Fishman to develop the Aura technology in whatever way is necessary to maintain the business "bottom line" and maintain their employees' long term job security. If they happen to have judged wrong, and there is a profit to be made from more expensive, higher quality gear, some other company will jump in to fill that void.

The long-discontinued Fishman Dual Parametric DI would be an example of a Fishman product which was superb, but just too sophisticated and/or inconvenient to use for the Average Joe plug-in guitarist market. Can you blame Fishman for being a little cautious in judging the level of sophistication of the market?

A high-hearoom Baggs preamp (powered by two 9v batteries) is another example of an excellent, but inconvenient guitar amplification product which didn't survive the marketplace. Personally, I'd LOVE to have a high-headroom PUTW Power Plug. I've discussed this with PUTW's David Enke on several occasions, but I don't seriously expect him to design one if he feels it won't sell.


Its an ironic reality, I guess, that those who take the initiative to do good things in this world are often criticized for not doing even more. "No good deed goes unpunished", etc. I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to expecting more from people or companies who are already doing a lot. Then again, sometimes expecting more is actually rewarded by getting more. Fishman finally seems to have gotten the "quack memo" from someone (perhaps Pete Townsend). To help address the problem, they are starting to include gain controls with their onboard preamps.

Gary
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  #43  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:44 AM
Joe Barbieri Joe Barbieri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
If that's the case, Joe, why won't Fishman create custom sound images for mag-equipped guitars? Has that policy changed?

BTW, its interesting to learn that some of the Aura technology has been improved upon since the original Aura preamp. I hope this applies to the new Aura Ellipse as well as the new pedals.

On the subject of the new Aura Ellipse system, will the onboard preamp have adjustable gain, as the onboard Aura's preamp does?

Gary
Hi Gary,
It's an across the board electronic upgrade for all Aura products. They all (Imaging pedals, Ellipse Aura, Onboard Aura and Aura Pro) share the following specs: Digital signal path:A/D, D/A conversion: 24-bit - Signal processing: 32-bit
As for Mag use with Images, although they will drive the Image, Images cannot be created with mag pickups. No change there.
The adjustable gain control you mention is an input trimmer. All Aura Products, including the original Aura Imaging Blender have an input control. This allows the player to adjust the input to get the hottest pickup signal possible without overdriving the preamp. Different playing styles require different trim settings for effective use of the systems.

JB
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  #44  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:55 AM
Joe Barbieri Joe Barbieri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
I need to apologize for the inappropriate comment about Fishman.
Thanks. Some of your ideas about future use of the technology are valid and interesting. There has been discussion about it here for years. We'll see where the road leads.

JB
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  #45  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:58 AM
Jerrysimon Jerrysimon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Barbieri View Post
Hi Gary,
It's an across the board electronic upgrade for all Aura products. They all (Imaging pedals, Ellipse Aura, Onboard Aura and Aura Pro) share the following specs: Digital signal path:A/D, D/A conversion: 24-bit - Signal processing: 32-bit

Ah. This may explain why when I have been phoning around about a Fishmaan Aura Acoustic Image Blender floor unit it seems to be in short supply in the UK and those left, have had their prices slashed.

Preseumably they are being replaced with newer upgraded 24-bit units ?

Regards

Jerry
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