Manufactured guitars vs. handbuilt

[El Conquistador]

A recuring theme on acoustic guitar forums is, are luthier built (handbuilt) guitars worth the extra money that one normally has to pay for them? The arguement for handbuilts are usually things like the luxury of customization to persoanl specs and better tone and playability, while the arguement for manufactured guitars is, they are just as good as handbuilts for far less money. This is an attempt to bring a different perspective to the issue.

A great luthier, who used to work for Martin, puts it this way. The difference between a manufactured guitar and a hand built is "the intention of the builder". While a manufacturer may have very skilled workers, it is the manufacturers intention to build a commericial guitar, ones that can be produced in very large quantities as similar as possible one to another at the lowest cost so that they can be offered at the lowest price point and designed to have the least chance of repair returns in order to mazimize their profit. This is the manufacturing model.

On the other extreme, the intention of a single person shop to to make their guitars for a very few people, each being unique to each intended player, at whatever cost each guitar requires with full attention given to sound and playability of each guitar rather than to future repair issues. This is the handbuilt model.

Here are a couple of links that illustrate this difference in "intention".
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/docum...our%20Part%201

http://www.baranikguitars.com/building.php?bpage=1

What stuck me about the Martin video is when he introduces the guy who has been doing the Kerfling for 42 year, "best kerf lining guy in the world", but, that's all he does. Also,
he shows the huge stack of really nice Alpine Italian, but, what any builder will tell you is that each one of those pieces is unique so the bracing station needs to respond to each piece and alter the bracing to match the individual piece of wood, which would be too expensive and too dependent on each employees skill level in a manufactured model.

Am I saying that all luthier built models are superior to all manufactured models, of course not. With all the new luthiers out there, lots are going to be too inexperienced or simply untalented to ever make a great guitar. Likewise, with all the guitars that come out of the Martin factory (their term), many are bound to be exceptional. But, I thought these 2 documented processes was indicative of the differences between the two.

[Jeff M]

Well put...

[rmyAddison]

Whether boutique luthier or Martin/Taylor/Collings etc. it still comes down to the sound and how it feels in your hands. I would have no problem buying a boutique guitar if it blew me away.............

But when I go on Dream Guitars I do not hear a $10K or more difference between the boutique guitars and some of the fine Martins, Collings, Froggies etc., maybe thats just my old ears, but to pay a premium just for exclusivity does not appeal to me personally. I would love to have an afternoon with a Traugott and see if they are truly magical, I don't know.

Buying from a large house has advantages too, you may be able to take your "pick of the litter" so to speak, versus being commited to a custom guitar that may not meet your expectations. A lifetime warranty has more meaning coming from a 175 company than a luthier who may get sick, go out of business or die.

This is just my opinion and I prefer the "vintage" sound but I think the good Martins and Collings have the sound I personally am looking for, nothing is lacking to me tonewise that I need to find.

There is nothing wrong with boutique builders and I'm sure some create wonderful instruments, and the builders on this forum appear to be great people to deal with.

Bottom line is there is room for everyone on this planet, if someone wants to have a custom build, its their dime, no right or wrong, just personal choice. I completely agree with your post about "intention", but again that does not guarantee that a $7500 handbuilt is going to sound better than a $7500 Martin from their custom shop. It's all good.

[Jeff M]

Well put...again.

When all is said and done, the most important factor in how a guitar sounds is the skill of the person playing it.
Lots of great guitars to choose from...both "mass produced" and custom built.
It ain't a contest.

[Simon Fay]

I see this topic come up quite often. I have been meaning to make a post here specifically about this and just share my thoughts on the subject since I am a builder and am probably coming from a different perspective

I know that there are sometimes debates about what constitutes a "handmade" guitars. It is really quite easy to show that this is really just an argument of semantics. To avoid all confusion and carry on with a good, healthy discussion. I will confine my comments to "artisan-made" guitars.

An individual luthier is somewhat unique in the world of artists as our work needs to have both functional and aesthetic appeal. I can think of other fields such as architecture that blend the lines like lutherie does. I often hear from some builders how they are all about tone. Well not me, I am all about the total package. I want my guitars to both look and sound great - neither one is really more important to me and if either one of those elements was sacrificed, then I would find little enjoyment in what I do. Half the fun for me is creating something that looks beautiful and the other half is creating something that sounds beautiful.

How come you never see people comparing a one-off sculpture with a mass-produced one? I see people trying to "justify" their most recent purchase by saying how much better their new handmade guitar is compared to a Taylor. Or I see people talking about how handmade guitars don't sound better enough to warrant the extra cost.

The truth is that you can find some wonderful factory guitars. And there is not a single player in the world that is "too good" for a nice Martin or Taylor. But there is added value and meaning when an individual pours themselves into creating an instrument. And that is why we use the term "handmade" because it is generally accepted as communicating that the object was made by an individual and not a factory. I most certainly believe that most artisan-made guitars will find themselves in a higher tonal and aesthetic league than your average factory guitar, assuming the luthier is competent at his/her work. But I also believe that if you judge the work of such a guitar on a purely utilitarian perspective, you will fail to see the true worth and value of the instrument.

Whether a handmade guitar is worth the money is entirely up to you. That said there is a law of diminishing returns - at a certain point, you have to appreciate the value in owning something that is made by a skilled luthier and you have to appreciate that luthier's aesthetic design and tonal goals to find the instrument enticing enough to buy.

There is no room for "Best Bang for the Buck" mentality in a New York art gallery and there is no room for it when you are shopping the very high-end handmade market.

Happy New Year's,
Simon

[woodruff]

in the end, if price were no object, meaning i had the money to buy either a handbuild or a gibson bozeman acoustic, i'd still take the gibson. which, in the grand scheme of things, you could then label me narrow minded. then i go home and play either my h-bird or my wife's j-45 and come away thinking i am a genius.

i know there a point in there somewheres....

[SteveS]

Here is a good article written by Ervin Somogyi.

"Some Thoughts on the Differences Between Handmade and Factory Made Guitars"

[Simon Fay]

I don't think you are narrow-minded at all...there is nothing wrong with anyone having a preference. I certainly wouldn't agree with you if you played one of John Greven's guitars modeled after early century Gibson models and still prefer an off-the-shelf Gibson model. But that wouldn't mean I am right and you are wrong.

Some people hate the sound of an Ovation -- and I personally really like the way they sound. They remind me of Cat Stevens and the folk-hippie era. Ovations give you a certain sound and that sound can not be qualitatively assessed with any real authority as being either good or bad.

Most folks have certain ideas of what is better when it comes to tone and generally speaking, most of us agree on what that means. Big volume and projection, strong bass, full mids, sweet trebles, good balance, good note separation. Full tone.

If the above sentiment agrees with you, then I think the reason you would prefer a factory Gibson if cost were no issue -- is that you simply haven't played enough artisan-made guitars. In particular, you haven't played those by builders who have a Gibsonesque tone. George Lowden builds great guitars - but if you are a big fan of Gibson, you might not like the tone he gets. And it doesn't mean you are narrow-minded if you prefer your factory Gibson to a handmade Lowden.

All the best,
Simon

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Thanks for sharing the Martin vids. I was fortunate enough to take a visit to Nazareth in the late 90's and it's pretty cool to see how it gets done. I still have a vivid memory of the "abalone women". There were 4-6 women who sat in chairs all day long doing detail abalone work - the tour guide said that many of them had been doing this for a long time. Wow - I'm not sure if I could do just that for 20-40 years .

Here's a few videos of a "handmade" guy making just one neck to contrast the videos above.

http://www.bevelsnob.com/RyanShrine/ryanshop1.html

[El Conquistador]

First, let me congratulate eveyone for keeping this potentially inflamatory issue on an intellectual level.

Originally Posted by macosx

But I also believe that if you judge the work of such a guitar on a purely utilitarian perspective, you will fail to see the true worth and value of the instrument.
Simon

I believe this statement moves the discussing along to the next level of "value" and how value is percieved by individuals. My original post was an attempt to look at the issue of factory vs. luthier built guitars from another perspective. I am thinking that I should have premised the two links witht the question "Which way would you like your lpersonal guitar built? But, this would have been a question of your own values.

So let's talk value.

I have it on good authority that if you were to sit down in a bluegrass cirlcel in Kentucky with a Traguout, everyone else in the circle would be thinking that poor guy must not be able to afford a Martin. My own brother upon seeing my Baranik told me I should show it to a friend of his, who owns a Martin. Also, I was once playing my Baranik with a couple of guys at a private party and some guy who was watching and listening made the comment to the guy next to me playing a 400 series Taylor, "Hey man, nice Taylor!" So most handbuilt guitars will have very little cache in the real world on non-guitar nuts.

RmyAddison states that it isn't about the brand, but the feel and the sound. Adding only that asthetic would need to be on my value list, I agree. The problem is, the ear is very forgiving. If you were to play a nice guitar piece in front of a group of people using a $50 guitar, they would all enjoy it. So, why pay Thousands of dollars for a custom?

In my case, the 3 customs I own came from a year long search for a guitar that was better than what I owned, and had owned for 30 years, and playing close to 300 guitars in that time without finding what was worth spending any money on. I then went to Healdsburg and found 30 or 40 guitars that were significantly better than mine in every respect, one, my Baranik, so amazing that I bought it on the spot. This guitar has brought me endless sonic pleasure, sometimes, pleasure simply by holding it up to the light to enjoy the amazing detail and beauty. This is why I personally have spent the money.

The interesting thing is that I was not aware that such guitars even existed. But, my attendance to a show where 100 luthiers were exhibiting their value propositions raised my perception of the value of a luthier built guitar.

Finally, Woodruff feels he has excellent value in his beloved Gidson h-bird. To that I say, Good on you, probably nothing better than a great guitar at a great price. that is what it is all about. This forum would be way boring if we all percieved value the same. Probably nothing better than a great guitar at a great price

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

...it is the manufacturers intention to build a commericial guitar, ones that can be produced in very large quantities as similar as possible one to another at the lowest cost so that they can be offered at the lowest price point and designed to have the least chance of repair returns in order to mazimize their profit. This is the manufacturing model.
...On the other extreme, the intention of a single person shop to to make their guitars for a very few people, each being unique to each intended player, at whatever cost each guitar requires with full attention given to sound and playability of each guitar rather than to future repair issues. This is the handbuilt model.

Hi EC...
If I understood the points of both positions, it could be summarized that a manufacturer is striving for consistency, and durability whereas a luthier is striving for improvement, customized features, and innovation. Those are good and valid points.

There are also many luthier built guitars commissioned by dealers who resell them through their showrooms for people who don't want to risk buying a guitar they have not played. These tend to less player specific and sport less customized ''features'' like fanned frets, sideports, wider nut/saddle etc.

[El Conquistador]

There are also many luthier built guitars commissioned by dealers who resell them through their showrooms for people who don't want to risk buying a guitar they have not played. These tend to less player specific and sport less customized ''features'' like fanned frets, sideports, wider nut/saddle etc.[/size][/FONT][/color][/QUOTE]

Larry,
At the risk of putting too fine a point on it, all things being equal (which they very seldom are) the luthier built model will provide a far greater probablility for a superior instrument specifically owing to the fact, unlike mass producing a car where each car part is theoretically the same, guitars are constructed of unique pieces of wood, not only unique accross a single species, but, also, unique piece to piece. So consistency without individualized evaluation of each piece is very probably going to produce a great deal of inferiority. Not always, but probably. Durability equates to over building. Bob Taylor is widely quoted as saying that Taylors are overbuilt to cut down on returns. In a house, overbuilding is a good thing. In a guitar, perhaps not.

Also, as I mentioned, my Baranik was not custom built for me, although Mike did thin down the shoulders of the neck per my request. The other two customs were a result of my taking the dreaded "leap of faith" that the luthier would be able to produce the tone and playability I would find ideal. One did, the other did not and is currently trying again. The failed guitar was largely a failure due to some "on the edge" things I wanted to try that turned out to be a bad idea.

So, the decision to buy a luthier built guitar vs. a fine manufactured guitar is problematic. I have a friend who had 6 custom built guitars, then, found a used SCGS, fell in love, and sold all her customs. Go figure.

Botton line: The acoustic guilar universe is large and can comfortably house all sorts of folks.

[Jeff M]

People who hear a piece of acoustic guitar music..... even other guitar players....., could care less who made the guitar they are listening to.
The vast majority of them couldn't tell an Olson from a Blueridge.
What they care about is how well a piece of music is played.

Some folks believe that, in general, custom made instruments sound and play better than non-custom made. Others (those lucky ones) can't tell any difference.
Trying to convince somebody that one is or is not "better" than another is like trying to argue religion with somebody.
When you buy an acoustic guitar, whether it is an Estaban or an Olson, you are buying it to please one person ......yourself. As long as you are pleased with it, it's "worth it".

[ChuckS]

I don't disagree with the above posts; all valid positions on the subject. My experience has been:

I had a wonderful guitar from a small, respected manufacturer (around 500/year). The guitar was everything I expected it to be and I played it exclusively for 3 years.
I then bought a handbuilt guitar, and for what was important to me it exceeded the boutique guitar in every way. The handbuilt even cost less than the boutique guitar, if both were built with comparable materials.

Both great guitars, but for me the handbuilt was the winner.

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

When you buy an acoustic guitar, whether it is an Estaban or an Olson, you are buying it to please one person ......yourself. As long as you are pleased with it, it's "worth it".

Agree completely. If you are pleased with it (whatever it is), you will enjoy it, play it, and grow with it. That's priceless in my opinion.