Complex w overtones or strong fundamental?

[dneal]

The problem is we (the board) think in terms of "or" a lot. One at the exclusion of the other, with no "in between" possible. Mahogany or Rosewood. Martin or Taylor. 12 or 14 fret. Paddle or slot head.

A guitar can have strong fundamentals, and be complex. It can be used for all kinds of music. A fine classical has both qualities, and the music usually played on it is often very, very complex. That's just one example.

Listen to this guitar. Strong fundamentals, lots of sustain, and complex overtones.

[BoneDigger]

I tend to play a mixture of bluegrass, folk, country, and rock. When I am in my bluegrass mode, and on some folk songs, I generally like a fundamental approach, with a spruce over mahogany guitar (generally my Guild D40) or perhaps my Blueridge BR140a, both of which are spruce over mahogany. However, sometimes when laying down rhythm I will use my Guild DV52 (spruce/rosewood).

When I am doing my singer/songwriter stuff I like a solid mahogany guitar (top/back/sides).

So, my answer is that I like them all, that's why I bought them! I sometimes like fundamentals, and sometimes like the lushness and overtones of the rosewood.

Todd

[la palma C]

Originally Posted by dneal

The problem is we (the board) think in terms of "or" a lot. One at the exclusion of the other, with no "in between" possible. Mahogany or Rosewood. Martin or Taylor. 12 or 14 fret. Paddle or slot head.

A guitar can have strong fundamentals, and be complex. It can be used for all kinds of music. A fine classical has both qualities, and the music usually played on it is often very, very complex. That's just one example.

Listen to this guitar. Strong fundamentals, lots of sustain, and complex overtones.

Good post, I was coming in here to make a similar point.

The OP brought up boutique guitars - the notion that their appeal was all overtones. I would have to disagree.

The appeal of a boutique guitar to me (aside from the top notch workmanship, finish, etc) is sophisticated tone, which IMO is the masterful manipulation of both fundamental and overtones.

[Pnewsom]

Strings have a lot to do with it. My Sitka/rosewood guitar is a little too heavy in the overtones department with a fresh set of Phosphor Bronze strings but settles down after a week or two and then is great for months.

Alternatively a set of 80/20 strings on it are much more fundamental oriented right out of the package, and what I have been enjoying for the last year or so.

On my Mahogany back & sides guitar, the phosphor bronze sound best.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by dneal

A guitar can have strong fundamentals, and be complex. It can be used for all kinds of music. A fine classical has both qualities, and the music usually played on it is often very, very complex.

A classical guitar is a different beast than a steel string in terms of how dense the music can be before note clarity is lost. A big part of that is in note rise time and note sustain. Steel string guitars get muddled notes pretty quickly on many classical guitar pieces. It takes a lot of string damping to control it whereas on a classical you may relatively sail right along.

[teleamp]

Just the right amount of sustain and decay that I prefer.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Pnewsom

Strings have a lot to do with it. My Sitka/rosewood guitar is a little too heavy in the overtones department with a fresh set of Phosphor Bronze strings but settles down after a week or two and then is great for months.

Alternatively a set of 80/20 strings on it are much more fundamental oriented right out of the package, and what I have been enjoying for the last year or so.

On my Mahogany back & sides guitar, the phosphor bronze sound best.

That's pretty much the recipe I've settled on. And I'd add that on a guitar with a lot of overtones, like a Lowden, more neutral strings that add minimum color, like Elixirs, can make a Lowden a little less overwhelming.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Beat Up G

A complex, lush sounding guitar can have both depending on attack and muting and I find the fundamentals to be 'prettier' vs. stark.

This is my experience. I play both solo instrumental, as well as play and sing in a band. When I got my first really good guitar (Baranik JX), I struggled with controling the overtones. I really had to step up my game to keep up with the guitar. Now that my technique has improved, I am able to enjoy lush overtones when I need them, yet, beautiful solid fundamental tone when I need it.

So, for me, I have the best of both worlds.

Steve

[mattmoo]

Listen to this guitar. Strong fundamentals, lots of sustain, and complex overtones.

[/QUOTE]

I find it is rare to hear a clip of a guitar that is impressive, but that guitar sounds really fantastic.

Interesting thread.

[SOR]

Originally Posted by dneal

The problem is we (the board) think in terms of "or" a lot. One at the exclusion of the other, with no "in between" possible. Mahogany or Rosewood. Martin or Taylor. 12 or 14 fret. Paddle or slot head.

A guitar can have strong fundamentals, and be complex. It can be used for all kinds of music. A fine classical has both qualities, and the music usually played on it is often very, very complex. That's just one example.

Listen to this guitar. Strong fundamentals, lots of sustain, and complex overtones.

That is a great guitar.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

A classical guitar is a different beast than a steel string in terms of how dense the music can be before note clarity is lost. A big part of that is in note rise time and note sustain. Steel string guitars get muddled notes pretty quickly on many classical guitar pieces. It takes a lot of string damping to control it whereas on a classical you may relatively sail right along.

Please re-read my post, because you appear to be trying to counter an argument I didn't make.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by mattmoo

I find it is rare to hear a clip of a guitar that is impressive, but that guitar sounds really fantastic.

Originally Posted by SOR

That is a great guitar.

I'm still kicking myself for not buying it.

[HAMFIST]

Originally Posted by SOR

That is a great guitar.

Doesn't hurt that they have Al Pettiway playing it, either.

In the OP, I was having a bit of fun with the complex tone appeal for boutique guitars. Complex. Sophisticated.

Some folks I know characterize something like a Seagull S6 as being strong in fundamental, when compared to something like a Santa Cruz model F. I kind of like both guitars -- don't get me wrong.

Two other things I'll throw out there. What about the role of top wood and bracing in complexity? Cedar, various varieties of spruce, mahogany? What role do they play?

Also -- does anyone else see a parallel here with electric guitars and humbuckers versus single coils. Denser chords to me DO sound better on my Thinline Tele than on a Les Paul or other fatter sounding guitar.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by dneal

Please re-read my post, because you appear to be trying to counter an argument I didn't make.

Originally Posted by dneal

A guitar can have strong fundamentals, and be complex. It can be used for all kinds of music. A fine classical has both qualities, and the music usually played on it is often very, very complex.

Somewhat apple and oranges to apply what works on a classical versus a steel string. Whatever the point you tried to make that is how it reads to me.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Somewhat apple and oranges to apply what works on a classical versus a steel string. Whatever the point you tried to make that is how it reads to me.

1. A guitar can have strong fundamentals, good sustain, and complex overtones. That is not a comparison of types, but a general statement about guitars.

2. I used a nice classical as an example of a guitar that can exhibit those characteristics, and do well with complex pieces. I even said "that's just one example" (and you truncated that part in what you quoted). I didn't compare classical and steel string guitars.

3. I linked a video of a Traphagen (steel string) 000 as another example of a guitar that has the general characteristics of strong fundamentals, good sustain and complex overtones.

There is no "classical versus steel string" aspect of my post. That came from you, and you are arguing against a point of your own invention.