The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:05 AM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Exclamation Binding Peeling Off Guitar?!

I've noticed that the binding on my guitar is peeling away from the top (?) I'm not too knowledgeable about guitar repair but is this a major problem?

The varnish is cracked and there is a clear gap between the white binding and the herringbone inlay.

The guitar has been dropped once when a strap came undone and it dropped while performing. The guitar landed on the instrument jack.

I've only had it for a year now and I've been pretty careful about maintaining humidity / temperature / etc.

Breedlove C25/CRE-H (Purchased January 2013) (Approx $1800 USD)

Images:

http://imgur.com/a/e5J6Q

1. http://i.imgur.com/1wakWhA.jpg
2. http://i.imgur.com/H4Eo2EQ.jpg



How much will this cost to fix? (I am willing to pay as much as it takes)

Should I contact Breedlove about it? (Or is it entirely my fault, and they can't really do much about it)


Can you guys make any recommendations for shops in the Medford / Boston, MA area?

Last edited by dk3919; 12-30-2013 at 05:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:04 PM
fazool's Avatar
fazool fazool is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 16,562
Default

OK its difficult to tell without actual examination but I do a lot of "forensic" type failure analyses for industrial/manufacturing purposes. Here is what I see immediately

If you look at the second picture, the profile of the wood changes along its edge. It appears (from the very limited "evidence") that the guitar dropped and took an impact on the top edge of the binding which, in turn, pushed down the wood on the side.

This impact probably fractured/sheared the binding glue causing it to separate.

You can very easily glue it back in place with crazy glue and holding it down with masking tape, but I suspect there will be a gap and some edge wrinkle where the wood appears slightly deformed.

I would apply some steam from a home iron to help the side's edge relax back up, then I would glue it in and then add some filler glue to the gap.

Stewmac has lots of info on binding gluing.
__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter"

000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:10 PM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
OK its difficult to tell without actual examination but I do a lot of "forensic" type failure analyses for industrial/manufacturing purposes. Here is what I see immediately

If you look at the second picture, the profile of the wood changes along its edge. It appears (from the very limited "evidence") that the guitar dropped and took an impact on the top edge of the binding which, in turn, pushed down the wood on the side.

This impact probably fractured/sheared the binding glue causing it to separate.

You can very easily glue it back in place with crazy glue and holding it down with masking tape, but I suspect there will be a gap and some edge wrinkle where the wood appears slightly deformed.

I would apply some steam from a home iron to help the side's edge relax back up, then I would glue it in and then add some filler glue to the gap.

Stewmac has lots of info on binding gluing.
Thank you for the quick reply.

Is this damage merely cosmetic or is it something that will affect the guitar's longevity?

I really purchased this guitar as an instrument I was hoping to keep for a long time (past a decade at least) and although I can't do anything about the defect now that it's there I'm curious as to whether it is fatal.

Also, in the second picture I'm not sure if it came out well, but if I run my finger down the bottom of the guitar it feels like the "crack" bulges out. (Not sure if relevant)

Last edited by dk3919; 12-30-2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Extra information
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:33 PM
fazool's Avatar
fazool fazool is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 16,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dk3919 View Post
...
Also, in the second picture I'm not sure if it came out well, but if I run my finger down the bottom of the guitar it feels like the "crack" bulges out. (Not sure if relevant)

Yes it does bulge out.

What I think happened was the guitar dropped and smacked the top surface of the binding. This slightly crushed the wood on the side, making it smoosh down and bulge out on the side.

So, your feeling of a bulge supports that suspicion.

Heating it up gently with a steam iron will relax the wood a little it will swell it a little but you can gently do it and maybe work the bulge back a little.

Then glue the binding back in.

Do some searching for using a clothes iron to steam out dings and dents. Then do some searching at Stewart McDonald on gluing binding back in place.

There should be no structural damage. The only unknown is if that level of shock could have broken any glue joints underneath, like braces or kerfing. Its unlikely but if you will rest easier get an android/iphone app called smartcam and you can look inside your guitar to inspect it for free.

It looks to be purely cosmetic. How well you can hide the evidence will be a result of 1) searching online for tips and techniques listed above and 2) patience in fixing it right.

Don't rush it.....take your time and you can do it right and make it look good. It will probably leave a little leftover evidence of its injury but it could be very minor by the time you are done.

Whatever you do.....do not use any sanding or scraping or anything to try and smooth things out. It will trash the finish and make things SOOOOOOO much worse.
__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter"

000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:44 PM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
Yes it does bulge out.

What I think happened was the guitar dropped and smacked the top surface of the binding. This slightly crushed the wood on the side, making it smoosh down and bulge out on the side.

So, your feeling of a bulge supports that suspicion.

Heating it up gently with a steam iron will relax the wood a little it will swell it a little but you can gently do it and maybe work the bulge back a little.

Then glue the binding back in.

Do some searching for using a clothes iron to steam out dings and dents. Then do some searching at Stewart McDonald on gluing binding back in place.

There should be no structural damage. The only unknown is if that level of shock could have broken any glue joints underneath, like braces or kerfing. Its unlikely but if you will rest easier get an android/iphone app called smartcam and you can look inside your guitar to inspect it for free.

It looks to be purely cosmetic. How well you can hide the evidence will be a result of 1) searching online for tips and techniques listed above and 2) patience in fixing it right.

Don't rush it.....take your time and you can do it right and make it look good. It will probably leave a little leftover evidence of its injury but it could be very minor by the time you are done.

Whatever you do.....do not use any sanding or scraping or anything to try and smooth things out. It will trash the finish and make things SOOOOOOO much worse.
Wow, such a wealth of information... Thank you !

Do you think I should ask someone more experienced in guitar repair to attempt this fix or is this beginner friendly (your language seems to point to it being easier)?

To clarify I merely play guitars, have never done more in repair other than changing strings hahaha.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:52 PM
fazool's Avatar
fazool fazool is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 16,562
Default

It can be a rather friendly repair. Basically what you can do....or, rather, what *I* would do is this:
  1. Put some wide blue masking tape around the guitar to protect it.
  2. Use a household clothes iron to steam the dented wood a little
  3. Tape the binding in place and dab with low viscosity crazy glue
  4. remove tape and glue the rest of it with low viscosity glue
  5. let everything dry and stabilize
  6. fill the air gap with thick crazy glue
  7. smooth and polish

Be very careful with the runny crazy glue it *WILL* run all over your guitar.

Watch some videos first to decide if you want to do it.

The problem you have is that you didn't break the wood. You dented it. So you will never get it back into perfect position 100%. Steam and heat will swell the wood and get it partway back, but not all the way.

And making it trick, you dented it on a sharp edge so a soft smooshy dent will not line up nicely with the sharp binding edge.

And, finally, the dented wood had to go somewhere so it bulged out the side.

Now, if you are extremely patient and careful you can coax the bulge in with a flat bar while steaming it.

Its not a bad problem. Just cosmetically tricky.
__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter"

000-15 / GC7 / GA3-12 / SB2-C / SB2-Cp / AVC-11MHx / AC-240
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:03 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dk3919 View Post

Do you think I should ask someone more experienced in guitar repair to attempt this fix or is this beginner friendly (your language seems to point to it being easy.
The photos do not provide sufficient information to properly diagnose what is involved. For example you mentioned that the instrument was dropped. Is this damage a direct result of the guitar being dropped?

Generally speaking, finish work is not something to be undertaken by those with no experience. If performed by someone with no experience, Chances are that the repaired area will look worse than it does unrepaired. More often than not, a novice with a bottle of crazy glue in their hands is a recipe for disaster.

Likely, the damage is cosmetic. However, to be sure I would recommend that you take it to someone who is an experienced repair person.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:11 PM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Default

Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:32 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

I should also have stated that if the damage is not a DIRECT result of dropping the guitar - that is it didn't appear immediately upon dropping the guitar or soon thereafter - it may have nothing to do with being dropped. In that case, it may be a warranty repair on a one-year old guitar. An authorized/skilled repair person will be able to determine that.

Unless you know for certain that the damage coincides with being dropped, it may be to your advantage to NOT tell the repair person that the instrument was dropped on the end pin and allow the repair person to come to his own independent conclusion what is the cause of the damage. If he concludes the damage is due to being dropped or struck, you can certainly state, "Yes, that's what happened".
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:32 PM
arie arie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dk3919 View Post
I've noticed that the binding on my guitar is peeling away from the top (?) I'm not too knowledgeable about guitar repair but is this a major problem?

The varnish is cracked and there is a clear gap between the white binding and the herringbone inlay.

The guitar has been dropped once when a strap came undone and it dropped while performing. The guitar landed on the instrument jack.

I've only had it for a year now and I've been pretty careful about maintaining humidity / temperature / etc.

Breedlove C25/CRE-H (Purchased January 2013) (Approx $1800 USD)

Images:

http://imgur.com/a/e5J6Q

1. http://i.imgur.com/1wakWhA.jpg
2. http://i.imgur.com/H4Eo2EQ.jpg



How much will this cost to fix? (I am willing to pay as much as it takes)

Should I contact Breedlove about it? (Or is it entirely my fault, and they can't really do much about it)

imo, take it to an experienced shop and get an estimate. make sure they check out the tail block. they can get whacked loose from the guitar landing "on the instrument jack"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-30-2013, 05:23 PM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
In that case, it may be a warranty repair on a one-year old guitar. An authorized/skilled repair person will be able to determine that.
Oh that makes far more sense than needlessly putting the blame on me.

I'll keep that in mind when I take it to whomever I can find in Boston / Medford area.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-30-2013, 05:24 PM
dk3919 dk3919 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston, MA & New York City, NY
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arie View Post
imo, take it to an experienced shop and get an estimate. make sure they check out the tail block. they can get whacked loose from the guitar landing "on the instrument jack"
Yup precisely what I hope to be able to do soon!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:03 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 3,127
Default

If it is just the binding, no big deal, but it should be fixed.

I'd want to look at the linings and the tail block to make sure that there is no structural damage. The glue joint of the linings/top/sides and the tail-block/top/sides are the key for structural integrity.

I do not recommend CA for a repair like this unless you know what you are doing, and what type of finish has been used, since it can either be really easy to clean up afterwards with acetone or it can be a real mess to clean up afterwards based upon finish type.
__________________
----

Ned Milburn
NSDCC Master Artisan
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-31-2013, 08:01 AM
B. Howard B. Howard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Magnolia DE
Posts: 672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
If it is just the binding, no big deal, but it should be fixed.

I'd want to look at the linings and the tail block to make sure that there is no structural damage. The glue joint of the linings/top/sides and the tail-block/top/sides are the key for structural integrity.

I do not recommend CA for a repair like this unless you know what you are doing, and what type of finish has been used, since it can either be really easy to clean up afterwards with acetone or it can be a real mess to clean up afterwards based upon finish type.

What he said.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-31-2013, 10:35 AM
arie arie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post

Unless you know for certain that the damage coincides with being dropped, it may be to your advantage to NOT tell the repair person that the instrument was dropped on the end pin and allow the repair person to come to his own independent conclusion what is the cause of the damage. If he concludes the damage is due to being dropped or struck, you can certainly state, "Yes, that's what happened".
i see this game played with auto mechanics, and other repair people. don't tell them what you think is wrong and hope they'll discover the issue. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. or they could take three days trying to figure it out when somebody could have said "i think the problem is there.." from the repair person's perspective the customer is "holding something back" and from the customers point of view they're "challenging" the repair person. imo, cut the bs and just be honest. just say "the binding is coming off and I think it happened when the strap fell off and the guitar landed on it's instrument jack -but i'm not sure. can you please take a look" they're going to find out what's wrong anyway and it really doesn't matter how it happened -it just needs to get fixed regardless.

Last edited by arie; 12-31-2013 at 10:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Tags
binding, breedlove, crack, inlay, repair

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=