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  #76  
Old 02-05-2012, 06:03 PM
daza152 daza152 is offline
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Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
L J Guitar .. Larry wrote :.. "In addition you should know how to play the same chord as an inside 4 string chord, and the inversions of the basic major and minor of the chord on strings 1-2-3 and strings 2-3-4 at least 3-4 places up the neck.
And that should be for any note in the chromatic list of notes, focusing as a solid start on all the chords in keys of C-A-G-E and D.
So you need to know:C, Cmaj7, C9, C11, C7, C6, Csus4, Csus2, Cdim, Caug, Cm, Cm7, Cm7flat 5, Cdimished, and know these in open position (first 3 frets) and at least in 5 positions up the neck. "
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Larry .. I agree, and disagree with your posting. The disagree part? There are only so many hours in the day, if I spend all my time learning all the different ways of making, constructing a chord, I'd never play the guitar. That said, I am learning new chords, shapes, etc, each day.
I looked at your C chord list; Maj, min, 7th, dim, maj 7th .. I am good to go on most of these, may need a minute to think on some. The 9, 11, aug, they kinda throw me. I must sit, think of how to construct.
One part of the posting though .. the inside chords. Can you explain this more. I got thinking on this. I am not quite sure what constitutes an inside chord. For example. If I play the C shape, or the C 7 shape.. that uses the 5,4,3,2 strings. I can move that shape up the fretboard.. C sh, D, D sh, E.. blah blah .. is that an "inside" chord?

.
None of these...sheeesh! keep it simple! look at some of the greatest guitarist ever used simple chords and amazing lyrics and melody thats 'All' you need, and according to John lennon all you 'need' is love
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  #77  
Old 02-05-2012, 06:15 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Irony!

All you need is love (and many Beatles tunes) use some doozys of chord progressions.
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  #78  
Old 02-05-2012, 08:49 PM
TJE TJE is offline
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Originally Posted by daza152 View Post
None of these...sheeesh! keep it simple! look at some of the greatest guitarist ever used simple chords and amazing lyrics and melody thats 'All' you need, and according to John lennon all you 'need' is love
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  #79  
Old 02-05-2012, 11:24 PM
daza152 daza152 is offline
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was just having a laugh.
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  #80  
Old 02-08-2012, 12:54 AM
815C 815C is offline
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I haven't read all the responses, so I may be repeating someone else here.

I'd recommend learning theory and the notes on the neck. That way you know all the chords. You can just figure them out on the fly vs. rote memorization of many many voicings.
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  #81  
Old 02-08-2012, 07:58 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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I'm going to come back with another summary of what's (mostly) been said, and a few different ways of looking at what's basic and necessary: different angles on the same information, alternative foundations and perspectives, if you like.

A lot of it is repeating what I posted earlier, but is a kind of re-arrangement of the information. I think I'll split it into 3 posts for manageability...


1. SHAPE-BASED FOUNDATION

1. Beginner guitarist chord shapes. aka "cowboy chords", or open position triads.
EIGHT of these:
C, G, D, A, E, Em, Am, Dm.

These are only common because the peculiar tuning of the guitar makes them easy to play. That in turn means that a hell of a lot of guitar music is made using these chords. (Guitarists like to make their lives as simple as possible .)

2. Open position 7ths. C7, G7, D7, A7, E7, Em7, Am7, Dm7, B7. Some of these have two shape options, because the 7th can be added in two places. Important for blues and jazz, less important in rock or folk.

3. Barre shapes. These are based on turning some open position shapes into movable ones, in particular E, A, Em and Am.
So we get an F chord from an "E" shape barre on fret 1, and a Bm chord from an "Am" shape barre on fret 2. Etc.
Barre shapes are the toughest challenge for beginners, but it's hard to find songs that don't have at least one.

4. Power chords. These are an important and easy option for rock players: the bottom 2 or 3 strings of barre shapes, essentially. THE basic chord shape for rock music .

This is still not a huge quantity of chords; and all are derivations of (a few of) those 8 basic cowboy chords.

[cont below...]
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  #82  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:02 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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2. KEY FOUNDATION

Sometimes known as "harmonized scale". This is about seeing chords in "diatonic families" - built from notes all taken from the same scale - which is usually the way they are used in actual music. IOW, a very practical perspective.
The same chords crop up in different keys, so - although there are 12 major and 12 minor keys in all - there's a lot of overlap. Every major and minor triad occurs in 3 different major keys. Every min7 chord also occurs in 3 different keys. Every maj7 chord occurs in 2 different keys. Dims and dom7s, however, only occur in one key each (at least, strictly speaking...)

There is no need to learn all 12 major and minor keys! (Except as a long-term goal if you're going to be a jazz player.) Guitar music - surprise surprise - tends to be written in keys that are easy to play on guitar. (If singers need a song to be in an awkward key, rock and folk guitarists are likely to use a capo to make it easier.)

The common rock guitar keys are as follows. I'm omitting the vii chord in each key, and replacing it with the bVII, because it's simply a lot more common. So these are not strictly diatonic sets (the bVII is out of key in major), but are the sets you're most likely to find, and therefore best to learn and practice with.

Code:
 
MAJOR KEYS
 
         I   IV  V   vi   ii   iii  bVII
C MAJOR  C   F   G   Am   Dm   Em    Bb
G MAJOR  G   C   D   Em   Am   Bm    F
D MAJOR  D   G   A   Bm   Em   F#m   C
A MAJOR  A   D   E   F#m  Bm   C#m   G
E MAJOR  E   A   B   C#m  F#m  G#m   D
 
MINOR KEYS
 
         I   iv   V  bIII  bVI  bVII
A MINOR  Am  Dm   E    C    F    G
E MINOR  Em  Am   B    G    C    D
This is not complete, of course, just the most common or useful sets of chords in the most common keys. In particular, other "borrowed" chords may find their way in (the bVII is just the most common borrowed chord).
I've arranged them left to right in approximate order of likelihood (more common to the left), but you may find bVII chords more often than iii or ii chords.
There are no real "rules" here, just "common practices". There is nothing you "can't" do, just things that are "not often done".
(Eg, you can use minor chords as Vs in the minor keys, but it's rarer than using the majors.)

Using B7 instead of B will make the keys of E and Em easier; and feel free to make any of the V chords into their "7" versions.
It's optional to add 7ths to other chords as follows:
I and IV have maj7s; all other chords have b7s (plain "7").
In BLUES, I and IV may have b7s added (making dom7 type chords), and will never have maj7s added. (OK, "never" is a big word, but don't bank on ever finding a blues with maj7 chords. Someone will now post an example, I expect...)
Blues is also much less likely to feature the minor ii, vi or iii chords.

PRACTISE the chords in each key "family"; in any order, always returning to "I" at the end.
Precede I with V, V7 or IV and compare the differences in sound.
In major keys, compare the difference in sound between using I, IV, V and bVII alone, and using I, IV V and the minors (excluding bVII).
In minor keys, compare how it sounds to use bVII in place of V, and vice versa. (Eg, compare F-E-Am with F-G-Am.)

[cont below...]
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  #83  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:09 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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3. THEORETICAL FOUNDATION

This is not tied to guitar specifically, and involves understanding (to some extent) how and why chords are made the way they are. It's useful for seeing connections between the above chords (eg in what ways C G D A and E are identical, even though the shapes are different), and for learning the fretboard.
It's based on the idea of a handful of chord TYPES, and then adding EXTENSIONS to those.
Which the most important basic types are depends to some extent on the kind of music you're interested in. You decide based on the following:

TRIADS

1. MAJOR.
Formed of a root, major 3rd and perfect 5th.
Chord symbol is the root letter alone. Eg, "C" means a C note, plus a major 3rd (E) and perfect 5th (G).
(If you're interested in this theoretical perspective, you'll need to do some research into interval terminology - which will pay big rewards! Chords are built from intervals - not just notes - and all chord names derive from interval names.)
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)
http://method-behind-the-music.com/theory/intervals
http://www.musicalintervalstutor.info/listenpg.html

2. MINOR
Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th.
Symbol adds "m" or "min" to the root letter to indicate the difference. "Cm" = C Eb G.

3. SUS4
Root, perfect 4th, perfect 5th.
Symbol adds the word "sus" or "sus4".
"Csus" or "Csus4" = C F G.
In rock, SUS2 is also common, but is simply an inversion of a sus4 - ie same notes in a different order.
SUS2 = root, major 2nd, perfect 5th
"Csus2" = C D G. "Gsus4" = G C D (ie same notes).

4. DIM
Root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th
Symbol is "dim" or "o".
"Cdim", "Co" = C Eb Gb
This chord type is not important for rock music, but is significant for jazz. However, it's still very rare as a triad, and usually has a 7th (two possible kinds) added - see below.

5. AUG
Root, major 3rd, augmented 5th.
Symbol "aug" or "+".
"C+" = C E G#.
Very rare chord type, again more useful in jazz than rock, but still less common than DIM.

SEVENTHS

6. DOM7
"Dominant 7th" in full, meaning the chord type you get when you add the 7th note to a chord built on the V (5th or "dominant") degree of a major scale.
Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th. The minor 7th extension is labelled plain "7".
"C7" = C E G Bb (dominant 7th chord in F major)
Dom7 chords are essential in blues and jazz; less common (but still useful) in rock or folk.

7. MIN7
Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th
"Cm7" = C Eb G Bb.
Another essential chord type in jazz, also common in R&B and funk. Sometimes useful in rock. Rarer in blues.

8. ADD9
Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 9th.
"Cadd9" = C E G D
A few add9s (Cadd9, Fadd9, Aadd9) are very common in rock, mainly because they're easy to play. Other add9s would be rarer because they're harder.
Has a similar sound to (and is often interchangeable with) a SUS2.

9.MAJ7
Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th.
Symbol "maj", "maj7", "M7", or a triangle, indicating the raised 7th.
"Cmaj7" = C E G B. (Compare with "C7" above.)
Widespread in jazz and R&B; less common in rock but occasionally useful. A distinctive, special sound, and usually quite easy to play.
Minor chords can also have major 7ths added, but are much rarer, even in jazz.
"Cm(maj7)" = C Eb G B.


Further chord types are mostly of interest only for jazz. They include:
DIM7 = root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, diminished 7th.
HALF-DIM = root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th.
6TH = root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th
MIN6TH = root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th
7#9 = root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th, augmented 9th (or the 5th might be diminished or augmented)
... see, we're getting into deep water now...


When applying these formulas to GUITAR, remember that the notes don't need to go in 1-3-5-7 order. However, if the root is not on the bottom, it's an "inversion", and most inversions have specific applications, eg used more as passing chords than lasting for more than a couple of beats. You can double up any note you like (that's within reach) to fill any spare strings; all common guitar shapes do this. But at least one of every note should be included. (The exception is 7th chords, where the 5th can often be omitted. Include it if you can, but it often sounds good enough without.)

Last edited by JonPR; 02-08-2012 at 08:15 AM.
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  #84  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:30 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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jonpr, lots of useful information in these posts. i had a few thoughts as i read through, so i guess i will pass them along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
2. KEY FOUNDATION
.... Every major and minor triad occurs in 3 different major keys. Every min7 chord also occurs in 3 different keys. Every maj7 chord occurs in 2 different keys. Dims and dom7s, however, only occur in one key each (at least, strictly speaking...)
...
would 'root' or something similar be a better term here. for example, 'every may7 chord occurs with 2 different roots'. after all, they are all in the same key, are they not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
3. THEORETICAL FOUNDATION


...
3. SUS4
Root, perfect 4th, perfect 5th.
Symbol adds the word "sus" or "sus4".
"Csus" or "Csus4" = C F G.
In rock, SUS2 is also common, but is simply an inversion of a sus4 - ie same notes in a different order.
SUS2 = root, major 2nd, perfect 5th
"Csus2" = C D G. "Gsus4" = G C D (ie same notes).

...
it doesn't seem correct to me to say that a sus2 is an inversion of a sus4, without mentioning the root has changed. interesting how they are related, though.

also, i'd add in dom9 chords, they seem pretty popular in all forms of music.

it's nice you take the time to write all of this information out.

it's interesting how dom7 came from the 7th chord built from the 5 degree of the scale, but now can be used simple to describe a chord type, like min7. in fact, there really isn't another term for it, is there?
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  #85  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:05 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
would 'root' or something similar be a better term here. for example, 'every may7 chord occurs with 2 different roots'. after all, they are all in the same key, are they not?
Well, my point was that (eg) Cmaj7 is found in the keys of C and G. Not to say that the key of C contains two maj7s (which of course it does).
Also it can be confusing to say "every maj7 chord occurs with 2 different roots". Any one chord only has one root!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
it doesn't seem correct to me to say that a sus2 is an inversion of a sus4, without mentioning the root has changed.
Good point - certainly for any rock players.
In jazz, they tend not to recognise sus2s, and see them as inverted sus4s.
Ie, even a C-D-G chord would be seen as a G-root chord (Gsus4). (Even though, with just those 3 notes, C would sound most like the root.)
AFAIK, the idea is that a jazz musician would see no reason to omit the 3rd of a chord just because a 2nd is added. It doesn't clash with the 3rd the way a 4th does. So an "add9" chord might be common in jazz, but there would be no point in ever playing a sus2. Sus4s, however, are extremely useful and common. So the 3 notes C-D-G are most likely to be employed as some kind of Gsus chord - although a 7th (F) would be a very probable addition, to confirm it. (It could also be a partial D7sus.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
also, i'd add in dom9 chords, they seem pretty popular in all forms of music.
I see them a lot in jazz, and fairly often in blues and soul, but not often in rock.
Still, good point, and I was only trying to draw an arbitrary line at some point to mark out basics. (We could go well beyond 9ths, of course...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
it's interesting how dom7 came from the 7th chord built from the 5 degree of the scale, but now can be used simple to describe a chord type, like min7. in fact, there really isn't another term for it, is there?
Right. I think the phrase "major minor 7th" was used at some time - which does describe the chord, but it obviously easily confused with a "minor major 7th" (m(maj7).
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  #86  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:14 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Well, my point was that (eg) Cmaj7 is found in the keys of C and G. Not to say that the key of C contains two maj7s (which of course it does).
Also it can be confusing to say "every maj7 chord occurs with 2 different roots". Any one chord only has one root!
...
not the way i play it! i was a little confused. thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
.... I think the phrase "major minor 7th" was used at some time - which does describe the chord, but it obviously easily confused with a "minor major 7th" (m(maj7).
i'm going to start using major minor 7th, especially in progressions that also have a minor major 7th.

"ok, it goes A minor, A minor major 7th, A minor minor 7th, A major minor 7th, and then on to bar 2. ready?"

Last edited by mc1; 02-08-2012 at 11:47 AM. Reason: correction
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  #87  
Old 02-08-2012, 11:40 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
not the way i play it! you are correct, but i think it reads a little better in context.
Well, you read it (or write it) however it makes best sense for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
"ok, it goes A minor, A minor major 7th, A minor minor 7th, A major minor 7th, and then on to bar 2. ready?"
LOL.
As long as we don't start talking about modes....
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  #88  
Old 02-08-2012, 11:48 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Well, you read it (or write it) however it makes best sense for you.
you know, i really should be awake and not distracted when i post. what you wrote makes sense. i really was thinking of 2 maj7 chords in each key. and i even read your reply wrong. sigh. thanks for your patience.
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