War of the Woods: Wenge or Walnut?

[dennisczech]

I went to spend the morning with my pal and superb builder Nick Branwell in South London. Nick's classical guitars get snapped up as soon as they're built, but his steel strings are strangely overlooked, despite being as good as any I've ever played, and incredibly well-priced. He had an "Estuary" model built on spec, based on the 1864 Torres shape (13.9 inch lower bout, under 4inch deep) in Engelmann and Wenge, that sounds huuuge, sweet, rich and responsive, everything you could want from a small 00, not boxy in the slightest, very seductive tone. I brought my 2 current guitars, both of which are superlative, and his was at least the equal if not better despite being smaller than both.
Anyway, I'd been toying with the idea of a commission for a while, and had obtained a 40 year old set of Italian spruce from another classical builder, who felt that his customers might find the grain a tad wide, so didn’t mind parting with it:



This stuff rings like the proverbial, and Nick was happy to use it, so the question was about the back & sides. Time to get some woods out from Nick’s stash and tap away!! We looked at sets of apple, pearwood, some lovely Indian rosewood, all of which were fairly dense and had a pleasing tap without being overly inspiring, but then Nick pulled out a set of walnut (4) and wenge (10):





The wenge had a brass-bell ping tap, metallic, loud and clear, very articulate and precise. It had a kind of African glockenspiel vibe. The walnut had a more woody but very sweet tap, way more going on musically than I expected, lovely range of notes, surprisingly enchanting and 3-dimensional, not as penetrating as the wenge, but more rounded. So which to choose? I knew what Nick can do with wenge, which sounded like top-drawer rosewood on the Estuary model, but I also really loved a cherry OM he built, which should share some similarity with walnut. They both finish pretty nicely and are attractive enough, if a little reserved visually. The walnut is easier to work with for Nick, and I found myself more drawn to it. But the wenge worked so well on a small-bodied guitar… but the walnut had that beautiful earthy tap tone…. But the wenge… oh man. First world problems huh.

[Mark Hatcher]

You are really only asking for personal taste. I assume that is Eastern Black Walnut. I would save the Walnut for a Redwood or Western Red Cedar because that is where it really shines. I would go with the Wenge because it pairs better with a regular Italian Spruce top and would do a better job displaying what that top can do.
Of course, that is what I would recommend if I were building your custom guitar based on the guitars I've made. Different luthiers get different results with the same woods so I would ask your builder what he recommends

Mark

[colins]

I’d be asking the builder how he thinks the two woods will impact on the guitar as each builder has her/his own approach.

My first custom build was with Mike Baranik and we used Italian spruce over claro walnut. It is a phenomenal guitar. Having read Mark's post I now wish I could compare it with an identical guitar using redwood!

On my most recent build with Mike he made double sides using wenge and I got the feeling this choice added to the guitar's sustain, so a question for your builder could be to ask whether one wood will give the guitar more sustain than the other.

[j. Kinnaird]

I second what Mark said. Spot on.

[Tim McKnight]

Wenge would be my choice. Walnut can make a nice guitar but the tone is tighter, more compressed and leans more towards fundamental.

[Alan Carruth]

Some of the local luthiers have had problems with wenge cracking after the guitar was completed. From what I've seen it has low splitting resistance, and with the wide swings we get you need to be careful with humidity control anyway. That may not be an issue for you. I've never had any problems with walnut, although, as Mark says, it has higher damping, and tends to prefer a low damping top like cedar or redwood.

[M Sarad]

My Brondel has Wenge.
The Lowden Walnut.
Different body size with different tops by different makers.
Completely different sounds.

[printer2]

What type of playing do you do or what guitars do you already have that cover a type of sound and need to fill a hole? Do you need a Rosewood end sounding guitar or a more Mahogany (for lack of a better term)?

[D41Fan]

My personal choice would be Walnut. I have heard all walnut guitars and the sound is to die for.
Taylor made an all Walnut Grand Pacific and Gibson made an all Walnut J45.
They were great.

[Bruce Sexauer]

It is amazing to me to think of having to choose between these two materials as though they were similar. I think of them as polar opposites! In the ongoing scale of Mahogany vs Rosewood, Wenge is in the Rosewood range, whereas American Black Walnut, in my experience, is before Mahogany, if Rosewood is after Mahogany. Virtually every wood is able to make an entirely acceptable guitar, but the character of those guitars is quite diverse.

I mention the M to RW scale because people refer to it constantly, but the actual tonal influence of what we call "tonewoods" is much broader according to my ears. Actually, more 3 dimensional, and not a simple graph.

[dennisczech]

These are all helpful responses, and much appreciated. I currently have cedar/padauk and sitka/mahogany, both 00 sized, both wonderfully responsive and delightful guitars, but completely different. I love them both. The sitka/mahogany is ultra-light (on the cusp of implosion), very powerful with plenty of body, flirting with a slightly harsh edge but got that nice woody punch, while the cedar/padauk is sweet and chimey, marginally less powerful and responsive but more forward tonally, i.e. less percolating in the body.

Why a third? Well, why not? I'm playing way more than I used to, and I enjoy it. Nick's guitar seemed to split the difference nicely between my 2 polar guitars, the creative resolution of the dialectic! I'm now leaning more towards the wenge.... mainly because I've heard it on 2 of his builds and it works excellently for my tonal preference. Thinking about Bruce's comment, the 3 of your guitars that I have loved the most were the original Braz dread 20 years ago, the Madagascar 00 and the Malaysian Blackwood 0, so maybe I should stick to what I know I love and not try the walnut.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by dennisczech

These are all helpful responses, and much appreciated. I currently have cedar/padauk and sitka/mahogany, both 00 sized, both wonderfully responsive and delightful guitars, but completely different. I love them both. The sitka/mahogany is ultra-light (on the cusp of implosion), very powerful with plenty of body, flirting with a slightly harsh edge but got that nice woody punch, while the cedar/padauk is sweet and chimey, marginally less powerful and responsive but more forward tonally, i.e. less percolating in the body.

Why a third? Well, why not? I'm playing way more than I used to, and I enjoy it. Nick's guitar seemed to split the difference nicely between my 2 polar guitars, the creative resolution of the dialectic! I'm now leaning more towards the wenge.... mainly because I've heard it on 2 of his builds and it works excellently for my tonal preference. Thinking about Bruce's comment, the 3 of your guitars that I have loved the most were the original Braz dread 20 years ago, the Madagascar 00 and the Malaysian Blackwood 0, so maybe I should stick to what I know I love and not try the walnut.

Then it is settled. You get the walnut made next year.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by dennisczech

These are all helpful responses, and much appreciated. I currently have cedar/padauk and sitka/mahogany, both 00 sized, both wonderfully responsive and delightful guitars, but completely different. I love them both. The sitka/mahogany is ultra-light (on the cusp of implosion), very powerful with plenty of body, flirting with a slightly harsh edge but got that nice woody punch, while the cedar/padauk is sweet and chimey, marginally less powerful and responsive but more forward tonally, i.e. less percolating in the body.

Why a third? Well, why not? I'm playing way more than I used to, and I enjoy it. Nick's guitar seemed to split the difference nicely between my 2 polar guitars, the creative resolution of the dialectic! I'm now leaning more towards the wenge.... mainly because I've heard it on 2 of his builds and it works excellently for my tonal preference. Thinking about Bruce's comment, the 3 of your guitars that I have loved the most were the original Braz dread 20 years ago, the Madagascar 00 and the Malaysian Blackwood 0, so maybe I should stick to what I know I love and not try the walnut.

Dennis
I have built a number of walnut guitars that work just fine, including an all (Claro) walnut guitar that has a very happy owner in Oz. I thought that last was fantastic, as did my local friends. All my guitars (others being outside my experience, for the most part) from the "lesser" woods (such as mahogany) are more personal, forgiving, and generally friendly than most of those from the uber-woods, those beyond BRW on the "scale". Wenge is an out-lier, +/- equal to BRW, definitely not toward mahogany, certainly in the uber region.

Personally, I hate Wenge from a wood worker's POV. It has all sorts of problems (splinters and pores), but it does sound good. . . as does everything else, in its own way.
Bruce.

[dennisczech]

And that's the problem Bruce! I know the walnut will sound lovely in its own way, but so will the wenge... what really surprised me was just how rich and lively the tap tone was on the walnut.

Fred, you beat me to it. But I'm already going a bit wild with 3 commissions so far. in the last 12 months..managed to sell off everything but one 00 and my nylon string. I've been thinking for a while that 3 or 4 different steel strings + a classical is already quite an indulgence. Yes, you can have too many guitars so I think one has to go!

[steveh]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Some of the local luthiers have had problems with wenge cracking after the guitar was completed. From what I've seen it has low splitting resistance,

I've played loads of wenge guitars and some have been amongst the very best guitars I've played (notably those from Ervin Somogyi, Tom Sands, & Jason Kostal).

It does split if you so much as look at it though. I've encountered a few with multiple back cracks, kept at seemingly sensible humidity. Indeed one was a couple of weeks old and hadn't even left the showroom. It had to be discounted heavily.

As also mentioned above, it is a complete pig to work with. I thought that wasn't my problem but a few years ago I asked a luthier to build me an OM with wenge back and sides and he point blank refused. He said it would just turn what is normally a very pleasant experience into a thoroughly unpleasant one, and said that if I wanted a guitar from him, I'd have to choose something else.

Cheers,
Steve