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Old 06-01-2022, 11:21 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Default The ideal string gauge? - open discussion

For a given scale length, and given pitch, there may be an ideal string gauge that is simply going to work (in terms of its physics) the "best".

Folks put differing gauges on the same guitar: For example, someone may put a set of 11-52s on a 24.75" scale 000 and someone else may string exactly the same guitar with a 13-56 set. Technically, one of those choices is not going to be as good as the other. You could get more intonation issues out of the lighter set because the deflection is a higher percentage of the tension; or perhaps you could get more intonation issues from the heavy set because you are at the limits of elasticity? And, of course, those two wildly different sets will drive the guitar to sonically different places. Personally I like heavy strings: more potential energy and, usually, less intonation issues.

Then there are the wraps themselves. Take, say, a 0.054 string - Some companies make that string with heavier cores and thinner wraps, some companies go with lighter cores and thicker wraps. So the same gauge of string can behave very differently.

Then there's playability. Some folks choose lighter string sets for their playability. Some folks like heavier strings because that's what the guitar was designed to take. Those with new Martin Custom Shop Authentic 1937 000-28s may have not read the original 1937 Martin catalogue. In 1937 you could buy Monel strings in medium (with or without a wound second) or 80/20s in heavy gauge (with or without a wound second). Martin would have more than likely fitted the brass 80/20s heavy gauge strings to those 37 000-28s at the factory. Today Martin fit 12-54s to their copy guitars - which seems to go against the original design?

So, if you have read this far, I am actually interested in how builders approach making guitars for specific string tensions - or does this not factor in your design approach? And does anyone build copies of 1930s guitars specifically to take 1930s style strings?
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  #2  
Old 06-01-2022, 12:02 PM
Fathand Fathand is offline
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There will be an ideal string gauge when there are ideal pizza toppings. Different people play different guitars using different techniques for different reasons with different expectations and will prefer different strings.

I have only built 4 acoustic guitars as well as some banjos, ukes and electric instruments but I would think that choosing strings after the guitar is built is an easier way to go. I seem to usually wind up with Bluegrass gauge 12-56 though, works for me.
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Old 06-01-2022, 01:07 PM
redir redir is offline
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Very generally speaking I have found that heavy guage 'medium' strings work well for Dreds and Jumbos then on down through 12's for 000/OM size and 11's for 00 size. I put 10's on my very small barnwood parlor guitars.

But again that's very generally speaking. It does make sense though that a heavier string is better for moving a large top but it really comes down to top thickness, bracing and so on.

So the answer is the ideal string gauge is the one that works for the guitar. I'd say what works for the player too but it's more so the guitar. Some guitars sound better with 13's or 12's but some players will want to put 13's on a guitar that sounds better with 11's and so on...
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Old 06-01-2022, 01:51 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Hi Robin, as you know, I'm extremely old and can remember when guitar strings were sold in greaseproof envelopes and gauge was never mentioned. They were sometimes silver wound and sometimes brass wound but usually pretty much corroded before you took them out.

Once I did start to recognise the alloys of windings and the gauge , i stuck to Guild, , Ernie Ball, Rotosound, or D'addario "mediums" or latterly "bluegrass" gauge which meant light gauge 1,2,and 3, and medium 4,5, and 6.

Nowadays it is mostly Martin , or D'addario for stuff that Martin doesn't do like 12 string or Dobro strings.

However, I've not been experimental in gauges:
Dreads, Roy Smeck, Archtops and National - mediums;
000 and smaller lights.
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2022, 03:01 PM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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I build each guitar for specific string tension, and always have. This does not mean I nail the perfect structure in every case, but I do get pretty close to my target most of the time. Early in my career I built more lightly than I do now, and my string of choice was Tomastik’s medium plectrum, which is a sort of extra light silk and steel string. Not quite like what they make today. 20 years ago I built mostly for 12-53 lights, and warned that using mediums on those guitars was risky behavior. Lately I have moved more of the structure into the top, relying less on the braces, and the product of my last several years is more likely to work with 13-56, though I hear a choked and poor response in many cases. Volume may go up, but it is less satisfying to play an over tensioned guitar. Most, but not all, of my dreads are built for 13-56, and sound a bit thin with lights. Those dreads which were built for lights sound great to me lightly strung, but still don;t quite make the sheer power of their heavier sisters.

My point is: each guitar, no matter the maker, will have an ideal strIng tension for its particular structure, and it is probably not useful to generalize about a universally correct string.
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Old 06-01-2022, 03:55 PM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Thanks all so far for your inputs.

Bruce; that was very enlightening.

I have wondered if, with Martin in the 30s/40s, that there was a bit of chicken and egg going on. The company was chasing to catch up with the musicians desire to play heavier strings (perhaps because that's what happened with the ever popular archtops at the time) - so bracing patterns were changed to enable the guitars to stand up to the more popular heavy gauges. Rear shifted X bracing was nothing to do with creating a tonal change but simply to stop dreads folding up with 14-60 string sets!

I dropped a set of 80/20 mediums onto my A&L Legacy 000 a few days ago. It normally wears 12-54s. I'm enjoying the punch and different note blends - it is certainly not choking. I'm going to play it at an open mic' on Friday evening in a big theatre, just mic'd, and I think that it will do just fine.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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Old 06-02-2022, 08:22 AM
Sadie-f Sadie-f is offline
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That's extremely cool as a run down of optimizing structure and string interaction my latest exploration has been to put a set of D'Addario silk&steel strings on my OM, and I wasn't super surprised that the disappointment with these is on the super light E at a mere 47.

I enjoy coaxing volume out of the bass strings on this and other guitars and for the good performance these strings give in light finger picking, they won't be a string of choice.
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Old 06-02-2022, 08:29 AM
Draft Guitar Draft Guitar is online now
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Santa Cruz says "Gauge means nothing. Tension means everything."

I'm starting to believe them.
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Old 06-02-2022, 09:10 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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It seems likely that acoustic guitars will respond sonically to different string tensions. I'm not sure what string gauge qua gauge has much to do with the matter (though it would impact other parts, like nut slots and individual saddle intonation ramps). Yes, I know that we use "string gauge" as shorthand for "tension" often, but since this question is of a technical nature I thought I'd point that out.

There have been times in my life when volume, or more exactly "cut," was important to my acoustic playing. Best as I can tell those times are past, and I haven't had the need for that characteristic even occasionally for about a decade.

I used to use Medium sets of common tensions on most everything, occasionally .12 high E sets either in "Bluegrass" lighter top/heavier bottom or the usual acoustic light sets. But I'd heard that Mediums sounded better and were louder, and figured well one can always play more quietly if you don't need volume.

As I recorded more and played more by myself I started to feel that that heavier tension lower strings did not produce the sound and balance I wanted on my guitars the way I play. I had a bit of a romance then with Elixir's HD sets (heavier top/lighter bottom). I think that scheme has merit.

I haven't changed that opinion, but as my hands and joints started to age and as I started to experiment with different string types (round-core/lower tension, Monel...) I reverted back to common set gauges as the experimentation didn't lead me to make custom sets to duplicate the HD scheme. And that meant that I used .012 high E lights. As aging continued, I moved some of my smaller guitars to "custom light" .011 sets, and I like the perceived lower tension of Martin Retro and DR Sunbream round-core sets too -- and the only acoustic I've bought in more than a decade has a shorter 000 scale. I'm definitely moving toward lower tension multiple ways and I don't think my recorded sound is getting worse. It's sometimes assumed that heavier tension makes for better sound, and lower tension is only a compromise for the weak. I haven't found that so. I do think they sound different (different doesn't mean "always better/optimum" sound).

Also in that time I found that I didn't really miss a heavier G or B string much, and only the high E has ever sounded 'weak." I might start doing "custom sets" with just a .012 high E substituted.*

Now I'm not everyone, and Robin the OP here is positing, it seems, that there may be an objective optimum (or at least rule of thumb) rather than a preferred compromise for a particular player. I suspect that's not so, but I'm just me.

I cross pick mostly, aiming for a sound that is like someone who fingerpicks wearing finger picks. I've got a weaker fretting hand now, but still like to bend stings intentionally sometimes on acoustic. Most of my acoustics do not have optimally low action. If you don't bend, low action mitigates string tension differences somewhat as far as playing ease (not completely) but of course the sound differences remain.

*I've used custom sets for Open G and DADGAD and it's like sometimes too.
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Old 06-02-2022, 09:50 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Quote:
Now I'm not everyone, and Robin the OP here is positing, it seems, that there may be an objective optimum (or at least rule of thumb) rather than a preferred compromise for a particular player. I suspect that's not so, but I'm just me.
Hi Frank I really enjoyed reading your whole reply but I thought that I'd pick out the sentence above and explain a little deeper where I am coming from with this topic.

I actually had mountain dulcimers in mind, or vintage mountain dulcimers to be more correct.

I read an articly written in 1914 where the correspondent was describing how mountain dulcimer players in Kentucky would tune the bass string on their instruments to "a good note" then the other two strings a 5th above. Most dulcimers at the time were strung with hardware store piano wire (No8 and No4 being the most popular). The scale length varied on those old instruments (I collected quite a few - pre-revival but from some time later) and experimented with tuning the instruments by ear to "a good note" i.e. the one that rang out the best. Inevitably, that "good note" was different on each instrument. Most interesting was that the string gauges were higher then "modern" mountain dulcimers of the same scale lengths, and the pitch of the "good note" was higher than the normal key of D used to play modern dulcimers.

I would play with fiddlers and banjo players, and if I upped the string gauges on my dulcimers the notes would jump off the instrument. Now, with guitars there are structural consequences to upping the string gauges. So I was interested in that balance from a historical perspective on guitar building.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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Old 06-02-2022, 09:38 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
Hi Frank I really enjoyed reading your whole reply but I thought that I'd pick out the sentence above and explain a little deeper where I am coming from with this topic.

I actually had mountain dulcimers in mind, or vintage mountain dulcimers to be more correct.

I read an articly written in 1914 where the correspondent was describing how mountain dulcimer players in Kentucky would tune the bass string on their instruments to "a good note" then the other two strings a 5th above. Most dulcimers at the time were strung with hardware store piano wire (No8 and No4 being the most popular). The scale length varied on those old instruments (I collected quite a few - pre-revival but from some time later) and experimented with tuning the instruments by ear to "a good note" i.e. the one that rang out the best. Inevitably, that "good note" was different on each instrument. Most interesting was that the string gauges were higher then "modern" mountain dulcimers of the same scale lengths, and the pitch of the "good note" was higher than the normal key of D used to play modern dulcimers.

I would play with fiddlers and banjo players, and if I upped the string gauges on my dulcimers the notes would jump off the instrument. Now, with guitars there are structural consequences to upping the string gauges. So I was interested in that balance from a historical perspective on guitar building.
I think you're noting (pun intended?) an interesting thing. I messed around with inexpensive mountain dulcimer a little bit, and in the days before inexpensive electronic tuners, the ease of tuning was an attraction. In your description it sounds like pitch is the main thing that caused a particular tuning of a string to jump out as "Aha! That's it." It would probably be some reaction to the resonate frequency of the sound box. Obviously, tension changed too, but wouldn't it be pitch that likely caused this? I'd often set my inexpensive, smaller dulcimer on a table-top, again seeking to change the resonate frequency, while keeping the pitch where otherwise I wanted it for my voice as I recall.
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Old 06-03-2022, 04:28 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
I think you're noting (pun intended?) an interesting thing. I messed around with inexpensive mountain dulcimer a little bit, and in the days before inexpensive electronic tuners, the ease of tuning was an attraction. In your description it sounds like pitch is the main thing that caused a particular tuning of a string to jump out as "Aha! That's it." It would probably be some reaction to the resonate frequency of the sound box. Obviously, tension changed too, but wouldn't it be pitch that likely caused this? I'd often set my inexpensive, smaller dulcimer on a table-top, again seeking to change the resonate frequency, while keeping the pitch where otherwise I wanted it for my voice as I recall.


Yes, table top playing is another factor in itself. I built this double fretboard fretted zither from an old door lintel taken out of a chapel in our village during a reburb. I designed it for table playing, although I did put a back on it for lap playing. I build one before with an open back just for table playing. It sounded weak when held in the air but put onto an old oak table in our local pub and it would ring out beautifully. A lot of middle European citerns have no backs and rely on the table top to become the soundboard.

I'm not quite sure what is going on, or how a solid lump of oak can become a soundboard/box, but it certainly happens.

This experience actually got me thinking about guitars (my mind works in mysterious ways!!!!). In particular it has me thinking about how important it is to get the vibrations from the nut/fret end of each string back to the body of the guitar (the sound box). I have wondered if the phenomena of a guitar initially "opening up" (rather than aging) has more to do with the neck engagement than anything to do with the top of the guitar. The tension on the strings combined with everything vibrating during play just cements the vibration transfer better?

Perhaps when building a guitar one "trick" would be to look at what aspects kill or enhance both body and neck resonance from both ends of the strings?

My definition of a "good" guitar is one where I can really feel the neck kicking in my left hand when I play.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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Old 06-19-2022, 06:40 AM
Horsehockey Horsehockey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fathand View Post
There will be an ideal string gauge when there are ideal pizza toppings. Different people play different guitars using different techniques for different reasons with different expectations and will prefer different strings.

I have only built 4 acoustic guitars as well as some banjos, ukes and electric instruments but I would think that choosing strings after the guitar is built is an easier way to go. I seem to usually wind up with Bluegrass gauge 12-56 though, works for me.
I just bought a used recording king dirty 30s series 7 parlor, strings were dead as expected so I mounted what I had on the shelf which was some silks.

So I bought some Daddario Bluegrass 12–56 light top medium bottom phosphor bronze EJ 19s. Going to mount those at some point and hope for the best. I finger pick. Low skill level. Think I’m on the right track?
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Old 06-19-2022, 06:56 AM
Fathand Fathand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsehockey View Post
I just bought a used recording king dirty 30s series 7 parlor, strings were dead as expected so I mounted what I had on the shelf which was some silks.

So I bought some Daddario Bluegrass 12–56 light top medium bottom phosphor bronze EJ 19s. Going to mount those at some point and hope for the best. I finger pick. Low skill level. Think I’m on the right track?
They are designed for flatpicking but who knows? I don't finger pick guitar much but when I do, I wear my banjo thumbpick and 2 dunlop .025 fingerpicks. They work for me.
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