AGF CS Luthiers, what are your thoughts about maple guitars?

[iim7V7IM7]

After reviewing the AGF Custom Shop historic posts, it has become clear that most commissioned custom guitars are made from rosewood(s) and other glassy, low damping tropical hardwoods followed by some made from mahoganies and similar moderate damping woods. This perhaps mirrors the make up of general solid wood flat top market (TBD).

Maples are beautiful and abundant hardwoods that come in a variety of looks, densities, stiffness, hardnesses; albeit all leaning towards the higher damping characteristics. Many tend to speak about maple as a single species but the varieties vary in their properties as rosewoods do and we tend to make distinctions there but not with maples. I also suppose CF Martin acoustic paradigm casts a strong influence for guitars to be made from rosewood and mahogany, but Gibson certainly used Maple (red maple?) abundantly in its great vintage guitars.

Questions to Luthiers:

Why don’t we see many custom builds made using maple(s)?

What do you think about maples (Bigleaf, Red, Sugar, Sycamore etc.) and its different patterns (birdseye, curly, quilted, spalted etc.) and its properties as a desirable tonewood to make a great guitar with?

Do you think its lack of popularity is customer driven, based upon their experience playing poor factory maple guitars (e.g. bright, sterile, fundamental)?

Do you think that it is the result of player's "listening with their eyes" (light colored woods vs. dark colored woods)?

Is it the style of play popular around here favors dense/glassy guitars that have more overtones?

Additionally, I almost never see maple listed in posts where luthiers list their favorite tonewoods. Privately, I have spoken with a number of luthiers who absolutely love making maple guitars.

I wanted to create a post that to give luthiers an opportunity to share their perspectives (hence placing this in The Custom Shop).

What say you?

[Steve Kinnaird]

Bob, you know my take, but I am happy to reiterate.
I L O V E maple, in its abundant forms and flavors. About the only species we have yet to try is the rock hard sugar maple. However, my brother cut two sets of Birdseye for my Christmas present, so it won't be long till we get to try that.
It is a too-common belief that maple only produces suitable instruments in the violin family, and is unqualified for superior guitars. But we have several very successful instruments out there that disprove that belief.
Yet the perception continues, which drives sales, and thus affects orders.
I once heard three identical OM's made by John Greven...identical except for back and sides. One mahogany, one Brazilian rosewood, one was maple. (Probably Big Leaf, but I don't recall that detail.) All had Lutz tops, and were played by the same player, playing the same piece on each guitar.
All were nice. The mahogany OM was predictable. The Brazilian was lusher with more overtone structure. But the maple spanked them all. It was amazing.
Visiting with John afterward I shared my opinion, with which he agreed.
So I always welcome a maple order, and know the customer is in for a surprising treat.

Steve

[bho]

Originally Posted by Steve Kinnaird

Bob, you know my take, but I am happy to reiterate.
I L O V E maple, in its abundant forms and flavors. About the only species we have yet to try is the rock hard sugar maple. However, my brother cut two sets of Birdseye for my Christmas present, so it won't be long till we get to try that.
It is a too-common belief that maple only produces suitable instruments in the violin family, and is unqualified for superior guitars. But we have several very successful instruments out there that disprove that belief.
Yet the perception continues, which drives sales, and thus affects orders.
I once heard three identical OM's made by John Greven...identical except for back and sides. One mahogany, one Brazilian rosewood, one was maple. (Probably Big Leaf, but I don't recall that detail.) All had Lutz tops, and we're played by the same player, playing the same piece on each guitar.
All were nice. The mahogany OM was predictable. The Brazilian was lusher with more overtone structure. But the maple spanked them all. It was amazing.
Visiting with John afterward I shared my opinion, with which he agreed.
So I always welcome a maple order, and know the customer is in for a surprising treat.

Steve

Hello,

I am not a luthier but I do own a Greven flamed maple guitar. John told me that maple, with the right build, can be rich and dynamic. He was right. My maple, even in the smaller OO shape, is rich, deep, and mesmerizingly beautiful. I would not hesitate to buy another maple guitar from a skilled luthier.

Thanks.

[harvl]

I've built several guitars from maple. Early on (living in Vermont) I used mainly sugar maple and eastern hard rock maple. This colored my thinking that maple produced bright guitars. After moving to Calif. I had a customer wanting a Quilted maple (Big Leaf) guitar with Adirondack top... I was very surprised to find that it was much warmer sounding. I built a number of small maple and redwood guitars for LA studio musicians and while I was never blown away with the visual combination it was a winner acoustically. I think the lack of maple is consumer driven based on tradition. Most customers want a sunburst which essentially makes maple look much more like rosewood. I know that Taylor is really trying to amp up interest in maple because of it's sustainability.

Harv

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by Steve Kinnaird

Bob, you know my take, but I am happy to reiterate. I L O V E maple, in its abundant forms and flavors. About the only species we have yet to try is the rock hard sugar maple. However, my brother cut two sets of Birdseye for my Christmas present, so it won't be long till we get to try that. It is a too-common belief that maple only produces suitable instruments in the violin family, and is unqualified for superior guitars. But we have several very successful instruments out there that disprove that belief.
Yet the perception continues, which drives sales, and thus affects orders. I once heard three identical OM's made by John Greven...identical except for back and sides. One mahogany, one Brazilian rosewood, one was maple. (Probably Big Leaf, but I don't recall that detail.) All had Lutz tops, and we're played by the same player, playing the same piece on each guitar. All were nice. The mahogany OM was predictable. The Brazilian was lusher with more overtone structure. But the maple spanked them all. It was amazing. Visiting with John afterward I shared my opinion, with which he agreed. So I always welcome a maple order, and know the customer is in for a surprising treat.

Steve

Thanks Steve!

Originally Posted by harvl

I've built several guitars from maple. Early on (living in Vermont) I used mainly sugar maple and eastern hard rock maple. This colored my thinking that maple produced bright guitars. After moving to Calif. I had a customer wanting a Quilted maple (Big Leaf) guitar with Adirondack top... I was very surprised to find that it was much warmer sounding. I built a number of small maple and redwood guitars for LA studio musicians and while I was never blown away with the visual combination it was a winner acoustically. I think the lack of maple is consumer driven based on tradition. Most customers want a sunburst which essentially makes maple look much more like rosewood. I know that Taylor is really trying to amp up interest in maple because of it's sustainability.

Harv

Thanks Harvey!

[iim7V7IM7]

A number of you have mentioned luthier John Greven and his maple guitars. I have found that he has spoken greatly on the use of maple in acoustic guitar construction. He does post here from time to time. Here are a few quotes that I have found:

....There are wide variations in the curl or flame in maple, everything from extremely bold, even flames all the way across the board, to smaller, broken curls which do not have the bold light/dark contrast. I usually go for the more intense flame. Quilt is actually a wide curl but the board is cut on the slab rather than the quarter, hence the figure being puckery rather than flame. There are several types of quilt, the best of which is the tornado quilt with very strong three dimensional bulges surrounded by a fine line of altered grain making each quilt blister stand out from the background. There is also popcorn quilt with smaller blisters. The tornado quilt looks like little tornados or sausages and is the most desirable and rare. Also a real b***h to bend! Now, the not so simple part. There are a number of different species of maple used in guitars, each having a slightly different tonal range. Most common (because the trees are large and finely figured) is the west coast big leaf maple. Medium hard, medium fine grain, ranging in color from fairly white to orangy browns. Often spalts due to growing conditions. (Spalting can occur in any wood as it is the advanced decay process which produces the colors as the fungus sends mycelia eating their way through the yummy wood.) European maple (German maple) is actually not maple, but a type of sycamore and is light, but stiff. Most often used in arch top guitars, violins, cellos, etc. Very white color, even flame and expensive. Makes excellent acoustic guitars, although I do not like the way it looks...bland. Sugar maple from the upper mid-west is also a good choice when available. It is the hardest of the maples and sounds a bit like a rosewood in an acoustic. Figure tends to be smaller, broken curls but now and then is bold. Heavy, hard, dense and stiff. All birdseye maple is sugar maple, other maples do not show this figure. As to sound, either the German or the big leaf maple are the best tonally, although I have made instruments from all of the above as well as soft red maple. They all sound good. It is in the structure of the top that the sound is created, the back and sides only color the sound...

. . . Yes, maple comes in many flavors. Hard to soft, flamed to quilt; they all sound a bit different based on hardness and stiffness. Basic rule of thumb is to couple a stiff top with soft back and sides or softer top with hard/stiff back and sides. This evens out the difference in tone between hard and soft maples. Quilt is a different beast. Cut off the quarter, quilt is always very soft (less stiff) and tough to get good highs out of. I only use the hardest spruce I can find when I have to do a quilt guitar, otherwise the sound is much too 'woody' and dark for my taste. Curly and flamed are essentially the same woods only a degree of curliness to differentiate them. Curl and flame appear in all species of maple, but are most pronounced in Bigleaf (west coast maple) and sugar (upper mid-west maple), the former displaying bigger, bolder curl than the latter (which is the hardest of the maples). Quilt is almost always a Bigleaf maple and is found all over the northwest. My feeling is that maple was given a bad rap through the big companies turning out thousands of over-built maple guitars. Making a maple guitar sound great takes finesse, something the big companies were never noted for....

...Perfect for light stings and finger picking. A typical maple guitar sound for me. I have no problem building any guitar size with maple and having it turn out well. It requires practice...practice...practice! It takes a bunch of maple guitars under ones belt to get the hang of it. Most important is coupling the right top with the back and sides. A stiff top, very lightly braced is a must to bring out the highs to balance the tendency for maple to be muddy. I prefer either hard maple or well quartered flamed maple for my backs to give them the required 'ping' I look for. Sides can be quartered or slab, doesn't make any difference tonally. Don't cut the back too thin, it needs more substance and stiffness than the rosewoods. The idea is to build the guitar lightly, but think light on the top rather than the back. The back will act as a tonal blotter if too thin or of softer wood, rather than a good reflector when left a little thick and stiff. Anyway...the answer is no, there is no ideal maple guitar body size. They can all sound great....

[Jimmy Caldwell]

There does seem to be a perception in the general guitar community that Maple guitars are less desirable. I think at least part of it, maybe most of it is the aesthetic. Buyers tend to prefer darker colored bodies..... Sounds silly but it's true, lots of people won't even pick up a Maple guitar because it looks different. It would be interesting to see what percentage of the maple guitars that are being made currently have some type of dark stain or sunburst.

Some Maple guitars do suffer from a lack of bass response, but this can be overcome by the builder with careful paring of the top and bracing schemes. I built a Maple 00 Nick Lucas style for the Memphis Show and it got great response from everyone who played it. It was a sunburst...... see the dark colored body comment above..... and it did sell. Trevor Moyle (TAMCO) bought it and it's on it's way to him now.

I'd love to build more Maple guitars and there are so many types of Maples that make great guitars. It's readily available, sustainable, and moderately priced.... Let's hope the guitar buying public will take another look at it. This is a great topic, thanks for starting the discussion.

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Caldwell

There does seem to be a perception in the general guitar community that Maple guitars are less desirable. I think at least part of it, maybe most of it is the aesthetic. Buyers tend to prefer darker colored bodies..... Sounds silly but it's true, lots of people won't even pick up a Maple guitar because it looks different. It would be interesting to see what percentage of the maple guitars that are being made currently have some type of dark stain or sunburst.

Some Maple guitars do suffer from a lack of bass response, but this can be overcome by the builder with careful paring of the top and bracing schemes. I built a Maple 00 Nick Lucas style for the Memphis Show and it got great response from everyone who played it. It was a sunburst...... see the dark colored body comment above..... and it did sell. Trevor Moyle (TAMCO) bought it and it's on it's way to him now.

I'd love to build more Maple guitars and there are so many types of Maples that make great guitars. It's readily available, sustainable, and moderately priced.... Let's hope the guitar buying public will take another look at it. This is a great topic, thanks for starting the discussion.

Thanks Jimmy!

[Trevor M]

Thanks for bringing this up, its a favourite topic of mine.

I have not found any resistance to the color but many pre-conceptions about bright tone. I believe this to be because individual luthiers (as Jimmy has said) treat each piece of wood differently according to its properties. Factories can't/don't do this and in my view it is the main reason why luthier made guitars are better than factory made.

I recently sold an Indian Hill grand concert in maple to a customer who couldn't visit. I spent hours on the phone explaining that his pre-conceptions were wrong and when he received it he was delighted.

Some of the warmest and richest sounding guitars I've had in have maple back and sides.

Here's what I say on my website entry for a Circa OO in maple.

"Contrary to many people's expectations (prejudices gained from playing factory made guitars?) it has a rich and well defined bass, warm and complex mids and clear, precise and full trebles."

I will post about Jimmy's guitar more when it arrives but it certainly doesn't lack depth of tone or full bass notes.

I have a thread going about a Leo Buendia build in birdseye maple. In the mandolin world birdseye is known to be harder and have a brighter tone than other maples. It will be interesting to see what Leo does with it, but I am expecting great warmth and depth.

Of course there is also the discussion about how much of the the tone is determined by the back and sides anyways. Another topic. I had a long chat with Ervin Somogyi about this a couple of days ago. He has been doing a very interesting project on this to be announced soon.

[iim7V7IM7]

I am sure that Trevor as an experienced retailer of custom instruments has seen all of the client preconceived notions regarding "maple" as well as their surprise upon playing a maple guitar. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Originally Posted by The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) UK

Thanks for bringing this up, its a favourite topic of mine.

I have not found any resistance to the color but many pre-conceptions about bright tone. I believe this to be because individual luthiers (as Jimmy has said) treat each piece of wood differently according to its properties. Factories can't/don't do this and in my view it is the main reason why luthier made guitars are better than factory made.

I recently sold an Indian Hill grand concert in maple to a customer who couldn't visit. I spent hours on the phone explaining that his pre-conceptions were wrong and when he received it he was delighted.

Some of the warmest and richest sounding guitars I've had in have maple back and sides.

Here's what I say on my website entry for a Circa OO in maple.

"Contrary to many people's expectations (prejudices gained from playing factory made guitars?) it has a rich and well defined bass, warm and complex mids and clear, precise and full trebles."

I will post about Jimmy's guitar more when it arrives but it certainly doesn't lack depth of tone or full bass notes.

I have a thread going about a Leo Buendia build in birdseye maple. In the mandolin world birdseye is known to be harder and have a brighter tone than other maples. It will be interesting to see what Leo does with it, but I am expecting great warmth and depth.

Of course there is also the discussion about how much of the the tone is determined by the back and sides anyways. Another topic. I had a long chat with Ervin Somogyi about this a couple of days ago. He has been doing a very interesting project on this to be announced soon.

[CoolerKing]

Taylor totally redesigned their bracing scheme and began dying the back/sides of their new maple 600 series, which I found interesting enough to play one the other day in the local shop. It definitely didn't sound like I thought it would, and if Taylor can make a good maple guitar I shudder to think what a great luthier can do (no offense to Taylor, more a compliment to our great CS luthiers.)

I bet the dying of the sides was driven by focus group analysis or some such. A big company like that doesn't take a gamble without a plan. It looked good in person.

[bobcef]

Great thread. We have always carried maple of various species and figure. We don't stock much because of lack of interest from the buyers. What a shame since it can make a wonderful guitar. Too bad more people don't recognize wood for what it is. A product of mother nature and NOT a man made material.

[Laurent Brondel]

Nothing wrong with maple(s), they all sound great. Various densities, from eastern sugar maple (the densest) to western big leaf or European. It is light coloured and somewhat non-traditional in the Martin paradigm, maybe that's why it hasn't really caught up. I recently acquired a bunch of torrefied curly and birdseye maple sets I can't wait to try.
I like building small guitars with maple, although bigger ones would sound great too.

This 14 fret single 0 is at Luthiers Collection:

German spruce / German maple C-4

And I made this other 14 fret single 0 for HGF 2013 where it was purchased:

Red spruce / birdseye - AB C-4

[Sturob]

I'm not a luthier either, but . . .

I have had a couple of guitars built with maple. Actually, maple is usually my preference for a custom build. It seems to me that all you're fighting is a preconceived notion that maple guitars don't sound good. In fact, often even when you read from a luthier his/her impressions of maple versus other tonewoods, even the ones who like it often don't describe it in very flattering terms. "Good note separation" often seems to be couched in the context of a lack of sustain.

Let's see, I have maple with Italian, German, and Adirondack spruce on top. All are really, really great. The maple/Adirondack dread has incredible sustain, as does the maple/Italian.

I will say this, also: I've had the maple/Adi dread at a couple of shops and at a couple of gatherings. People are usually floored by how it sounds, saying things along the lines of, "Maple isn't this good!" I let a woman play mine once as she was contemplating her own custom build, and she loved it, but I think she was afraid hers wouldn't come out that well so she ordered EIR.

Maple has the added bonus of being sustainable and not requiring tropical deforestation or illegal or immoral logging... As we become more aware of such issues, perhaps excellent temperate-zone timbers like maple will become more popular.

S

[The Bard Rocks]

Maple also happens to be the most common native species that routinely has outstanding figure. Never thought of it before, but you are right: not being in the traditional Martin style has probably held back acceptance. I will watch with interest how the Taylor approach works out. It was something of a bold move for them and I applaud them for that.