Custom carbonfiber wood hybrid

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by printer2

Maybe a CF instrument, but with a wood top it is not fish nor fowl. CF is a limited market already, narrowing down the market even more excluding those that want a guitar that survives where wood would not. I agree with much of what Roger has said. Used to work at an aerospace plant where they built composite parts. Also worked at a community college where students laid up their parts by hand so I have seen both ends of the craft and know you can do good work without needing a $$k mold.

Want to attract investors? Build one and sell it. Better yet, build ten and sell them. Show there is a market. And concentrate on one good product, not a whole line. Might even make it more salable if you put an electric option on it. You might have more luck if you get a few touring musicians interested in using it. You want to offer a better mouse trap for sale, but how is it better than the one's being sold right now?

I don`t just want to target the carbon fiber guitar market, but also the acoustic guitar market, that`s why i have a traditional front appearance. The whole "carbon guitar, doesnt change in any climate" marketing has been milked dry. The fact that you use carbon is not enought to become a whole seperate market, in my opinion. It should just be a great guitar regardless of materials used.

My personal opinion is that most carbon fiber guitars on the market lack warmth. The primariy reason for this is becasue they use a carbon fiber soundboard on a carbon fiber body. This does not make any sense to me. You have a hard and dense body with a hard and dense top. This would be like putting a maple soundboard on a maple body.

I believe that you have to balance out the soundprofile, so if the body is hard and dense, the top should be soft like spruce or cedar. If i would use a carbon fiber soundboard, i would want a soft body like mahogany.

This is just my opinion. I do know some of these companys have been started by composit technicians, not luthiers persee.

The hybrid model uses the strenths, sustain and clarity of carbon fiber, and the warmth of wood to make a balanced soundprofile. The reason is that one type of mass has one type of sound profile. Once the properties are known, i would want to look at a second material that has the properties that the first one lacks.

For now, all my eggs are in the kickstarter basket, so i have to ride it out. If nobody supports it, that could be viewed as a market signal (if you had proper website hits). If its a succes then this is also a signal, and could improve your position with investors. I hope it works out for the model and me, if it doesn`t i will sell 3 prototypes, build a 1000 euro mold and keep building, That is the slow and hard route but i will do what i have to do.

[Lespaul123]

Originally Posted by littlesmith

That is why i have to do a kickstarter soon for 8 units, being an inventor and never selling anything is not economical.

Here is the quote, maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying.

I am sorry to learn of your troubles. Would it be possible to apprentice at a composites shop somewhere? I feel that you could learn a lot from this type of work. I really don't think you need a mold with all of that, a traditional mold will get you there. This is what I have used for years with no troubles. There are many shops out there using them as well. Once your production requires it then convert.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by Lespaul123

Here is the quote, maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying.

I am sorry to learn of your troubles. Would it be possible to apprentice at a composites shop somewhere? I feel that you could learn a lot from this type of work. I really don't think you need a mold with all of that, a traditional mold will get you there. This is what I have used for years with no troubles. There are many shops out there using them as well. Once your production requires it then convert.

Yeah, a job in composites would help a lot to learn techniques. About that quote : i did an electric upright bass, then i wanted to learn violin building, then an antonio de torres replica. So every time you have a setup costs that is not proportional to building 1 unit.

What do you maen with a traditional mold? A mold where you would put bend sides in?
If thats the case, i have a unibody own design, where the back, sides, neck and head are all 1 comonent, that won`t work for me.

EDIT: I misread the quote sorry, it really does say inventor. That was about my previous model, which was a failure. It was called the loosetop. The edges of the soundboard were not attached to the sides of the guitar. I thought it would vibrate better, just like when you push a ruler on the table and make a boink sound. It did not do what i expected and wanted, so i abandoned it and now i am using the unibody to simply make a good guitar instead of fake fancyness. That is how the current Hybrid model came to be,

[aki]

Think it's awesome that you're pursuing this and enjoy the thread.

I think it's too early for a kickstarter, because at least from the pictures you'd still need to refine your craft. People usually want to kickstart what looks like a refined prototype that needs the funding to mass produce. At this juncture it looks like they'd be funding your learning and perfecting your craft--something most would shy away from.

Before building different variants, I'd get the carbon-fiber process down pat. The strands/flaws in the CF finish to me show the process is still a work in progress. Maybe the vacuum infusion isn't getting out all the air bubbles? Need a film between the breather material? There seems like a lot of basic/essential things that need to be resolved before getting into things like different rosettes, or even a kickstarter:

- Maybe use cheaper fiberglass to just perfect the process so that there are no bubbles. Or less layers of CF.

- Once you get the process down, then use more layers of CF. Then determine how many layers of CF you need for a sufficiently rigid guitar.

- Then determine how many layers of CF you need for a nice-sounding guitar.

- Once the building process has been perfected, then comes testing the prototype. Playing in different environments (wet/hot/cold/dry) to see how stable the mating of the CF and the soundboard is.

[printer2]

How about a plaster mold?

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by aki

Think it's awesome that you're pursuing this and enjoy the thread.

I think it's too early for a kickstarter, because at least from the pictures you'd still need to refine your craft. People usually want to kickstart what looks like a refined prototype that needs the funding to mass produce. At this juncture it looks like they'd be funding your learning and perfecting your craft--something most would shy away from.

Before building different variants, I'd get the carbon-fiber process down pat. The strands/flaws in the CF finish to me show the process is still a work in progress. Maybe the vacuum infusion isn't getting out all the air bubbles? Need a film between the breather material? There seems like a lot of basic/essential things that need to be resolved before getting into things like different rosettes, or even a kickstarter:

- Maybe use cheaper fiberglass to just perfect the process so that there are no bubbles. Or less layers of CF.

- Once you get the process down, then use more layers of CF. Then determine how many layers of CF you need for a sufficiently rigid guitar.

- Then determine how many layers of CF you need for a nice-sounding guitar.

- Once the building process has been perfected, then comes testing the prototype. Playing in different environments (wet/hot/cold/dry) to see how stable the mating of the CF and the soundboard is.

People wont be funding my learning. I am confident the investment and new prototypes will elevate the quality to warrant the pricepoint (and more). I took the very first prototype to a music stores, and it could go up against any 1000 euro more expensive A brand guitar.

I know how many layers and in what direction, it is a combination of unidirectional and twill weave carbon and fiberglass. These 3 prototypes have been built with wetlay, not with infusion.

I agree with everybody here that there are more ideal ways, but i simply have 0 euro. I can not choose what i want, i can only seek possibilities. Don`t be fooled by these romantic suscces story kickstarters with fancy prototypes, they have massive funds behind it. You often see new campaigns with a section, as seen on these "news sites", these are rented URLs, and you have to write your own "news" story and supply it to them. These campaigns spent 30k on marketing the kickstarter and their prototype is already made with fancy tooling that an investor paid for. Their kickstarter campaign is just a route to market and a marketing campaign.

If i had my own money, i would spent freely on a space and tooling before selling a single guitar, but i don`t live in fantasyland. The kickstarter supporters will know what they get, and the final quality will be determed by them, the supporters. The more people join in, the higher quality the tooling will be, and their gutiars with it. If certain goals are met, i will hire an experienced carbon technician to make bodys. The supporters will choose if they get a guitar from a passionate hobbyis or from a real comapny in a rented space. They will determine if it comes from a handbuild mold made from a wooden plug, or from a 10k aluminium routed mold from a 3d model.

All these things help (offcourse it all needs skill). 1 thing helps a little, but 40 little things help alot. The prototypes show potential, their finish quality is not great, but that was not their purpose and the finish quality i wish, is simply not attainable with my means. I just have to be patient and keep focussing on the endgoal, a great guitar model. I dont want a big factory and production numbers are not the most important thing to me. I would never want a mega factory, i think the ideal company size to stay on top of the quality is around 10 people.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by printer2

How about a plaster mold?

He put that plaster under there so his gelcoat would not flow under the part (so you can release the new mold from the plug, if you had overhang, you could never get it out). The traditional buildup is a gelcoat on your plug and then back it with fiberglass. After that you could use a plaster like substance to build the mold up further, for example to make it retain heat better.

I have to keep an eye on the warping temperatures, my resin cures at 80 degrees celcius, so i want the mold to be able to handle 100 degrees or more. It`s just like an amp and speakers, you want extra room. I got my eye on this one that can go up to 110 degrees celcius http://www.carbonwinkel.nl/nl/mallen...r-eph-161.html

[littlesmith]

Paulo Bouwman playing the Klijnsmit musical instruments 3rd prototype.

This video is part of a Kickstarter recording session to make the Hybrid guitar a reality.

Please share this with your friends so the campaign can get some pre buzz, please enjoy this amazing guitar player!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaV8KhzeBhQ

[littlesmith]

My brother and i recorded 8 guitar players in 1 weekend with a professional rented quality camera, lighting and we borrowed mics without static, and i was super gratefull for their time, playing and feedback, i have worked on a dime without prospects for years (not a pity party, but 75% minimum wage for 8 years, you have to choose buy this what i need OR put it into guitar projects), and now it looks like i might actually have a chance on funding---> a.k.a enhance quality.

We had 95% positive feedback which you can find here (we are uploading strategically so not every thing is on here :

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmA...XV6mDMQ/videos


The other 5% of constructive criticism will not be hidden and sweeped under the rug, but incoorporated into the final Hybrid master shape.

Things like top dops on the neck (to see at which fret you are playing), a rounder neck profile for more comfort and strap buttons on the body to hang the guitar around your neck or shoulders.

My brother and i are now producing Hybrid model variations, and we are approaching Dutch designers and we have an awesome artist, she will make 4 units (http://www.ninavalkhoff.nl/)

This is a sneak preview teaser of any social media outlet (facebook, twitter, instagram).

I am doin that here, because this forum is where it all began, the very first post about revitalising a failed project that devastated me, is now coming full circle on the same thread. I don`t think many people followed it from start to where we are now but that first post, here on acoustic guitar forum is already
10-26-2014, 03:03 PM.

So here are the impressions we are playing with now :



And actually, for transparancy, had to upload the picture on twitter first to show you guys, so you are second, jeeh!)

[littlesmith]

Prototype 2 : Steelstring had a Shaller roller bridge with a design flaw. One of the saddles had the hole for the ball end out of line. That means the string hits the saddle and then goes at an angle instead of straight. The force of the string tension wants to put it in 1 line so every time a guitar player hit that string too hard, it would pop out of the saddle and be out of tune.

Long story short, i was very embarraced during the kickstarter footage shooting, although this wasnt really my fault. I understand this is an electric guitar bridge, but i didn`t like it at all.

I had glued it to the top with 2500 psi glue, and that could not be seperated anymore, so i cut it out. The tape is the line of correct intonation that i used later to place the new bridge.



Glue support pieces under (could not be 1 piece because of the carbon fiber support frame, the hole is for the last clamp, lol.



I am missing a few pictures where i put a layer of veneer in to stop the glue from dripping down, and accidentally glueing the soundboard to my support frame. I don`t want that so i glued a veneer glue catcher and then a cedar insert. Then i chiseled out the shape of this traditional steelstring bridge and embedded it about 1.5 millimeter into the soundboard



Glue some extra structural cedar pieces.



Made an inlay with the same woodspecies as the rosette and headstock inlay. The pieces are the same length and shape.



Positioning.



Marking.



Cut them as close as possible to the real thing (mock shot, i am right handed, hehe).



Chisel out the edges on eye for depth.



Level.



Glue with my favorit glue : Titebond!



Clamping.



Not too shabby end result, and hiding the structural wood nicely.

[rogthefrog]

Do you plan to make a model that demonstrates your ability to make a professional-looking guitar? I like the tone in your videos, but the fit and finish so far do not inspire me to fund your project--simply put, nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe you will deliver high quality instruments that look good.

Instead of working up seven different models, i'd focus on nailing one.

Clean lines and finish aren't more expensive to do. The bar is very high in today's market--even sub $500 guitars out of China can be cosmetically perfect. The professionally filmed videos only highlight that your guitars look like prototypes, not finished products made by a pro. And the guitars are out of tune on at least three videos. My suggestion is to use the Fresnel solo video, as it is the best performance and the best sounding guitar; not the others.

Blaming the bridge manufacturer for a defective part and saying it wasn't your fault isn't a good sign. It is your fault--you chose the part and attached it very securely before making sure it was correct. Take responsibility for your work.

Until I see a Klijnsmit that looks like a professionally made instrument, I won't be interested, and I expect a lot of potential buyers feel the same.

Please take this as constructive criticism, not an attack on your skills.

[printer2]

Normally you can remove a bridge by heating it which softens the glue.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

Do you plan to make a model that demonstrates your ability to make a professional-looking guitar? I like the tone in your videos, but the fit and finish so far do not inspire me to fund your project--simply put, nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe you will deliver high quality instruments that look good.

Instead of working up seven different models, i'd focus on nailing one.

Clean lines and finish aren't more expensive to do. The bar is very high in today's market--even sub $500 guitars out of China can be cosmetically perfect. The professionally filmed videos only highlight that your guitars look like prototypes, not finished products made by a pro. And the guitars are out of tune on at least three videos. My suggestion is to use the Fresnel solo video, as it is the best performance and the best sounding guitar; not the others.

Blaming the bridge manufacturer for a defective part and saying it wasn't your fault isn't a good sign. It is your fault--you chose the part and attached it very securely before making sure it was correct. Take responsibility for your work.

Until I see a Klijnsmit that looks like a professionally made instrument, I won't be interested, and I expect a lot of potential buyers feel the same.

Please take this as constructive criticism, not an attack on your skills.

Thank you, i am very aware of the finish quality. I made the best of it with the means that i had.

I chose that bridge because it was the only one on the market with locking saddles that i could find. I needed it all of a sudden because the ultra thin carbon bracings made the top resonate like crazy, creating all kinds of undesirable buzz from the springs or rattling saddles. There was already a metal bridge on there which had a resonating part. Nobody can predict what will happen if you put an electric gutar bridge on an acoustic guitar. If i had resources i would make alot more then 3 prototypes... Mc pherson made over a 100 prototypes with professional tooling.

I lituraly sacrificed food to make this, no vacations in 10 years, no new clothing, no anything. Everything into this thing. Perhaps another 100 bucks could have gotten a small buffing thing or whatever, but this is the end of my power, im already in the hole with loans with people... It has to stop somewhere.

Those 500 dollar guitars are cheap becasue those people get a lousy salary, they are not happy and have no passion for guitar building. Billy drills hole A1 all day like a robot, drill-next-drill-next. They had a multi million dollar setup for a mega factory, the bosses are breathing down their necks to uphold the production numbers.

But i am not steriotyping becasue there are also wonderfull asian huge factorys, like the korean factory that does the Rob Chapmann guitars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZhAzVo6mX8

I am a huge perfectionist and that does not help, nobody in the game is using aero space qualty epoxy resin. If it gives 5% more stabiluty then anything on the market, then it is worth it to me, and i am giving up profit for it gladly becasue that means the guitar has gotten a bit better (relative to what it can be and my potential) i don`t see others as competition. There are about 4 carbon acoustic companies world wide that got my attention,nobody does a wooden soundboard, nodody does nylon. I am positioning myself to offer something unique and original, so the others already in the space will not be hindered by me. Also with my wooden front features i bridge out of the carbon guitars into the normal space. I believe in coexisting, that is why copycat companies need to knock it off, its diluting quality, and offering stuff to cheap. If you can buy a squier for 120 dolalrs that is pretty nice, why would you get a 2500 dollar strat. That is the same discussion some people starter when PRS came with the cheaper line. BUt they are totally different markets, beginners, students, guitar pros etc. There is room in the world for any guitar builder and company that does their own thing, there is not enough space for copycats to ride on the succes of a guy or company that sacrificed to get to that point. They make a minor adaptation to duck a patent and hiut the market. i think that is very sad.

Look at Furch, a great guitar brand but reasonably cheap... why? Because its in a country where the minimum wage is very low. "Minimum Wages in Czech Republic increased to 337.58 EUR/Month in December" (=$380.89 per month).
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/czec.../minimum-wages

If furch was in the usa they would cost double or tripple. If i hire 1 unskilled 23+ year old guy here in the Netherlandsthe minimum wage is € 1.501,80 per month ($1693) https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel...1-januari-2015

Imagine if i want to attract a composite technician from the aerospace industry with 5 to 10 years experience, then we are talking 3000 to 6000 per month or more.

I sacrificed for years, now its time for proper resources, i am utterly tired of working with inferior tooling or not being able to afford the solution... I am doing this on 50 euros per month. Everything else i put in has to come from another functional jar, a.k.a cutting.

So your desire to see a perfect instrument without ahuge investmet is simply impossible. I already have a real quote for a 10000 dollar mold, that is 1 mold not a company. Setting up a composites instruments company is more expensive then a wooden guitar company setup. Paul reed smith needed $500000 and that was in 1985 and did not use composites. I can not buy a cheap bit, i have to get the diomand coating stuff for composites, i can not buy a box of paper dust masks, i need a full face cover with a micro particle dust sucking system in the tables, on the ceiling, in the tooling, or i could get cancer from airborn poarticle. Everything in composites is more expensve then wood.

No proper mold = no proper vacuum. No vaccum = pin holes (now you have to fill up 100`s of tiny holes. Oops you have a leak in the vaccum bag , but you have no idea where, because you don`t have an ultrasonic vacuum leak detector. Get vacation money once per year, build work surfaces, now you have to wait another year before you can do anything...

Anyway, i don`t say this to make a pity party, i am saying that, with the proper recources, space and materials, i will flourish and baffle with quality. I live on 75% minimum wage for 10 years, so if you need to buy a 75 euro scizzors to be able to cut your 54 euro m2 carbon, you are taking a massive hit with montsh of consequences. These protoypes have been built to show what it could be with resources. I would rather have a badly finsished thing that sounds good then a beautifull thing with a crappy sound.

So please don`t expect professional quality from me in this situation, i am doing my very best. Sorry if i got worked up and typed a long thing, i know you mean well with good intentions... I do admit that i rushed through these 3 prototypes more then i should have. i got the vacation money of this year, and i was so happy to have materials and not sit behind a pc and watch tv shows all day. I understand that every little job has a correct way of doing them. I had to choose with this years money (and extra loans) to build a new proper mold and have no money for materials, or refurbish a dead mold and attempt to show the full range of possibilitys of the Hybrid model, i had to do that with 750 euro, so 3 prototypes is not bad. The real guitars would be more expensive to produce per unit. The 1st guitar shows a design with wide neck and ebony 21 frets fretboard, 2nd guitar is more modern with handmade elements and 24 frets rosewood. The 3rd is an example of a non standard material choice. I think this was the correct choice. If i had a time machine i would not change this western poverty stuff, it tought me creativity and flexibility as well as adaptibility. I am saying western poverty becasue i would not dare to compare myself to an actual poor person, i have lived in squatted houses, i stole food. God is taking care of me, i was never worried about my food during 10 years of messing around with instrument r&d (this model 1 year r&d).

If this campaign is a succes, i will make several prototypes (between 5 and 10 that are not for sale) : a prototype with the final dementions of the new tooling (final bridge positioning etc +perfect intonation, a perfect finish prototype, The colors should be viewed as cosmetic. There is 1 final Hybrid specs model, the rest are cosmetic.
I can not begin to describe the frustration of seeing the quality level it should be at in your mind, seeing what methods and tooling could make that happen, and then being able to afford 5% of that quality wise...
I am fighting for my dream and one day i will succeed, i simply want to build a great guitar model and a company later on. I will not ask you to support the campaign, but i ask people to give me a chance to prove what i am capable of...

It may not look like it all the time, but i know what i`m doing. ^_^
Koen.

[rogthefrog]

Look at this guy. He's not complaining. His guitars look like a million bucks.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=402580

TBH I'm no longer going to follow your work, because every piece of feedback anyone gives is received with a post full of self pity about how hard everything is.

Entrepreneurship is hard. That's a given. Your job is to make the best, most sellable instrument possible. Go do that.

Do you have any market validation the world wants a loose top CF guitar? Composite guitars aren't exactly a runaway success (ovation, CA, etc). The guitars in your videos sound good, but not mind blowing. Given the vast amount of choice in the market, why would anyone buy or invest in your project? Guitarists buy guitars because of price and playability and tone, not based on the builder's passion for guitar making. So far I'm seeing passion and not much else, and zero appreciation for feedback.

As an entrepreneur myself who's pitched many investors and had successes and failures, nobody cares about your difficulties. We want proof you can make a good guitar. Not four ugly guitars in 7 different colors.

Why not do that?

[littlesmith]

I have tried to explain my situation and made it quite evident it was not a pity party.

All the feedback of the people that tested the guitars has been integrated into the final model that resulted in actual changes, so i must respectfully disagree that i don`t listen to feedback.

The guitar thread that you showed looks amazing, and we both know that result is achieved with proper polishing, that means you have to own the machine, the weels and the compound. I don`t.

"We want proof you can make a good guitar. Not four ugly guitars in 7 different colors. Why not do that?"

I have explained to you in great detail in post 118 why that request liturally impossible to make a perfect composites finish without resources. If i had the ability to do that, i would not need to do the Kickstarter at all...... I explained to you a single mold can cost up to 10000 dollar and that i have 50 per month (16,6 years saving) , and you want me to "simply do it". I do not live in peter pan land where i can just imagine stuff and it appears, i live in the real world where stuff costs money. People do Kickstarters to get the resources to complete a mission. Everytime you see a Kickstarter with a perfect protoype that is already the consumer ready version, they achieved that with investors, their kickstarter is simply a covert route to market. I actually need resources to get there.

I have spent about 2 hours on post 118 to try to give you a deeper understanding of the inner mechanics of where i am now, why, where i want to go, and how i will get there, it did not work. I`m sorry for that.

I will not elaborate further on this matter, thank you for your interrest up to this point.



Koen.