I sold my Tonedexter

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

The Tonedexter gets a lot of love in this forum. Deservedly so.

I was an early adopter with the twenty-fifth unit produced, and I still believe that it has changed the face of the industry.

But what I found repeatedly is that at bigger volumes, my K&K equipped Martin CEO-7 has a more reliably usable tone through my simple Radial PZ DI with a HPF.

If/when I ever get back on stage, I'll be using a good two channel analogue pre-amp such as a Grace Felix or a Radial PZ Pro to employ a HPF and sculpt the mids. I may also blend in a mic such as the Shure Beta 27.

My journey continues.

Peace,
David

"Reliably usable" in gigging situations was my concern as well, since I was playing in difficult environments and picking with bare fingerpads (needing higher gain before feedback) for much of the time.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I eventually sold my ToneDexter as well. Once properly EQed, the Baggs Anthem SL was working just as well for me.

I do have some hope that the Baggs Voiceprint will work better, however. I'm hoping that its adjustable anti-feedback system will work better than ToneDexter's fixed-cut plus notch system for battling feedback and tubby tone problems. I was never completely pleased with simply using ToneDexter's bass control to roll off the bass to a substantial degree. As nice as ToneDexter's notch is, I don't have much time to fiddle with it in some situations.

[Jmac25]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Actually in the original, my insistence on a HPF was only on the mic channel - that's where it's especially critical for me (internal mics are boomy without it). The original version of the preamp - the "MS-DY" - is a lot simpler that the MS-2, I tried to not go overboard with requests, I just wanted a simple preamp with the MS feature. With the MS-2, they've taken it to a new level by adding all kinds of (useful) features I was either too shy to ask for or that I didn't personally need.

A HPF on the pickup channel is certainly nice to have, and I'll use it now that they've added it (I used the one on Felix). Typically I just set it enough to get rid of the "thump" that you tend to get from any SBT when you fingers hit the string. Dazzo's much better about this than K&Ks, but it's still there. I could see it being useful for reducing low end feedback, or getting a thinner sound for rhythm guitar in a band setting. For me, I try to deal with feedback in other ways - keeping stage volume down, speaker placement when possible, choice of guitar/pickup, and so on.

The Sunnaudio EQ is really nice, it's what drew me to approach them with the idea of the MS preamp, they've done something nice with the frequency choices and curves that makes what specs out as modest boost/cut extremely effective and musical. I think it's what EQ should be - not something where you have to do some surgicalEQ to try to salvage a bad sound, but something where you just refine an already good sound to your taste.

I think that's what people mean by Dazzo's not needing EQ. You don't have to get into this thing I keep reading about on AGF where people need lots of parametric EQ to dial out objectionable frequencies, or whatever it is they're doing. The Dazzo's sound very good totally flat. But if you want to remove a bit of thump or reduce low end feedback with a bit of HPF, that can be useful, and a little bass or treble adjustment to taste can be nice, too. I have not found IRs to be especially useful with Dazzo either, the difference it makes is too subtle.

Doug, you always provide top notch info; greatly appreciated. Are you saying that in your opinion, IR’s are don’t make enough of a difference if you have a Dazzo/Sunnaudio combo in your guitar? I was considering the Voiceprint di, but now may opt to try the Dazzo/Sunnaudio combo and run it through my LR Baggs Venue into my Schertler Roy. I currently have a LR Baggs Anthem in a Gibson J45. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for your response.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Jmac25

Doug, you always provide top notch info; greatly appreciated. Are you saying that in your opinion, IR’s are don’t make enough of a difference if you have a Dazzo/Sunnaudio combo in your guitar? I was considering the Voiceprint di, but now may opt to try the Dazzo/Sunnaudio combo and run it through my LR Baggs Venue into my Schertler Roy. I currently have a LR Baggs Anthem in a Gibson J45. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for your response.

Dazzo's the one pickup I just haven't had any luck with with ToneDexter. Other pickups have an obvious improvement, but while there's some difference in the tone of the Dazzo thru ToneDexter, it's not necessarily better to my ear. One difference with me compared to this thread, is that I'm not looking for some big resonance in my sound - if I get that, I try a new mic position when training. That resonant sound is why I never liked the Aura. I just want that piezo edge, quack, whatever you call it, to go away, and ToneDexter does that in a way that normal EQ can't do. However, Dazzo doesn't have that to the same degree. It sounds pretty good straight and flat. Note that I always add an internal mic to my sound which smooths off the edges a bit and adds some air.

I'm not sure why you'd use the Sunnaudio into a Venue. That's 2 cascaded preamps. I'd use one, whether it's the voiceprint (which I haven't tried yet), the Venue, or the Sunnaudio. You only need one.

I just posted this again a bit ago, but here's how my Dazzo-equipped guitar sounds thru the Sunnaudio MS-2 with a Bartlett internal mic. The mic has a HPF engaged, and I had a slight bass boost on the Dazzo just to taste. No ToneDexter in this example. (If I used a different pickup, I'd apply a ToneDexter IR as well). This is also directly recorded out of the preamp, so it's "worst case", it would only sound better thru a good PA.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Hi Vancebo, I don’t understand. Most Dazzo pickup aficionado like yourself say that Dazzo pickups don’t need EQ unlike most SBTs (ex: K&K)... However you just wrote an adjustable high pass filter is a necessity.

I am lost. I agree that SBTs in general need a HPF, that is the reason why it was a major request from Doug Young to sun audio for the MS-2 design. I just though Dazzo was different.

I plug into my amp in my office and flat works. If I took the same amp and played in a band with drums in a rectangular room and a big boxy stage I need to start adjusting to get the cut I want. The bass plays the bass notes so I need to use the HPF to get out of the bass players way. When I use my guitar solo to accompany 600 singers in my school gym I just add a little treble. Each situation is different. I need a tool that can handle it all. The Sunnaudio does that and does it.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Actually in the original, my insistence on a HPF was only on the mic channel - that's where it's especially critical for me (internal mics are boomy without it). The original version of the preamp - the "MS-DY" - is a lot simpler that the MS-2, I tried to not go overboard with requests, I just wanted a simple preamp with the MS feature. With the MS-2, they've taken it to a new level by adding all kinds of (useful) features I was either too shy to ask for or that I didn't personally need.

A HPF on the pickup channel is certainly nice to have, and I'll use it now that they've added it (I used the one on Felix). Typically I just set it enough to get rid of the "thump" that you tend to get from any SBT when you fingers hit the string. Dazzo's much better about this than K&Ks, but it's still there. I could see it being useful for reducing low end feedback, or getting a thinner sound for rhythm guitar in a band setting. For me, I try to deal with feedback in other ways - keeping stage volume down, speaker placement when possible, choice of guitar/pickup, and so on.

The Sunnaudio EQ is really nice, it's what drew me to approach them with the idea of the MS preamp, they've done something nice with the frequency choices and curves that makes what specs out as modest boost/cut extremely effective and musical. I think it's what EQ should be - not something where you have to do some surgicalEQ to try to salvage a bad sound, but something where you just refine an already good sound to your taste.

I think that's what people mean by Dazzo's not needing EQ. You don't have to get into this thing I keep reading about on AGF where people need lots of parametric EQ to dial out objectionable frequencies, or whatever it is they're doing. The Dazzo's sound very good totally flat. But if you want to remove a bit of thump or reduce low end feedback with a bit of HPF, that can be useful, and a little bass or treble adjustment to taste can be nice, too. I have not found IRs to be especially useful with Dazzo either, the difference it makes is too subtle.

Gee. Well said. That’s why they pay you the big bucks. 😀

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

I plug into my amp in my office and flat works. If I took the same amp and played in a band with drums in a rectangular room and a big boxy stage I need to start adjusting to get the cut I want. The bass plays the bass notes so I need to use the HPF to get out of the bass players way. When I use my guitar solo to accompany 600 singers in my school gym I just add a little treble. Each situation is different. I need a tool that can handle it all. The Sunnaudio does that and does it.

Thanks Vancebo,

it totally makes sens to me now. So the EQing you make is equivalent to what someone would try to do with the HPF, Low and treble EQ on any mixer in a band situation. How high would you have to set the HPF on the MS-2?

With many SBT you would use a parametric EQ to cut in the 400-500 Hz region. Do you need such correction too?

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The Sunnaudio EQ is really nice, it's what drew me to approach them with the idea of the MS preamp, they've done something nice with the frequency choices and curves that makes what specs out as modest boost/cut extremely effective and musical. I think it's what EQ should be - not something where you have to do some surgicalEQ to try to salvage a bad sound, but something where you just refine an already good sound to your taste.

Thanks Doug!

Do you know if the tonedriver onboard preamp has the same EQ frequency and curves?

The manual says the bass EQ is subsonic


Interesting quote from the manual

Useful Tip: The Bass EQ is specially tuned for 2 operating modes. For solo and small acoustic groups with a properly setup
subwoofer in the PA system, boosting the sub-bass can introduce a very powerful and natural 'emotional impact' into the
performance. This is a very unique and special wide band feature of a properly interfaced Dazzo-Sunnaudio acoustic system.
Conversely, in a typical band setting, cutting the sub-bass will help preserve power amplifier margins while allowing and
preserving the bass and higher harmonics associated with acoustic instruments to cut thru in the final mix.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

With many SBT you would use a parametric EQ to cut in the 400-500 Hz region. Do you need such correction too?

I do not cut midrange normally. Might be different for strumming than fingerstyle, but I want warmth and mids and the Dazzo sounds good flat. It's nice to have the sweepable mids on the MS-2, but I didn't even ask for that on the prototype.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Thanks Doug!

Do you know if the tonedriver onboard preamp has the same EQ frequency and curves?


Interesting quote from the manual

No, I don't know. Maybe the sunnaudio guys would tell you. I did an analysis of the Stage DI when I reviewed it for AG, because I was so surprised (in a good way) at how the EQ acted. I didn't save the graphs (nor did I mention it in the article - not trying to "out" any proprietary info...), but I don't recall that it revealed anything that seemed unusual. But it sounds unusual, maybe I didn't know what to look for. I asked Sunny about it, and he said he'd spent a lot of effort on the exact curves and frequencies of the controls on that device to make them musically effective. Based on what I remember, I'd say the MS-2 also has the same. No idea about the ToneDriver, tho.

[Cuki79]

Thanks Doug!!

I think if I ever get a 000-18, I might give a try to the Dazzo-Sunnaudio combo.

I wish to have a piezo-mic combo... It might end up being to expansive (from an European price point of view)

Cheers,
Cuki

[Ken Carr]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Thanks Doug!!

I think if I ever get a 000-18, I might give a try to the Dazzo-Sunnaudio combo.

I wish to have a piezo-mic combo... It might end up being to expansive (from an European price point of view)

Cheers,
Cuki

Hi Cuki. I just installed the Dazzo with Tonedriver in my Langejans. I tried it on Sunday through my church p.a. system and it sounds so much like a good microphone that I believe adding an on-board mic would not accomplish anything. But I was playing it through my Tonedexter.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Ken Carr

Hi Cuki. I just installed the Dazzo with Tonedriver in my Langejans. I tried it on Sunday through my church p.a. system and it sounds so much like a good microphone that I believe adding an on-board mic would not accomplish anything. But I was playing it through my Tonedexter.

if one uses Tonedexter, is the SBT « that » important?

If I want to use IR, then I don’t need a Dazzo pickup, I can use any SBT because the IR will compensate...

[Petty1818]

Not to go too off topic here but I guess my main hesitation with a Dazzo pickup is that I did not have great luck with the Amulet tonally. I have read comparisons and many people say they liked both but for those that have tried both the Amulet and Dazzo, how do they differ? Does on have more high end/low end? Is one more transparent? I am just looking for specific comparisons.

From the demos I have listened to and the experience I have had with the Amulet, I tend to find that it has somewhat of a signature piezo tone to it. It's a brighter pickup and maybe a tad thinner sounding. The Dazzo too has a piezo quality but I tend to find it to be a warmer sounding pickup and maybe slightly more natural. Any thoughts?

[buzzardwhiskey]

Having sold my Tonedexter, I'm looking at the current market for two channel preamps again...

The Sunnaudio looks nice, but am I to understand that neither channel has a gain knob?

This seems quite strange given how I use gain to affect mids.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Having sold my Tonedexter, I'm looking at the current market for two channel preamps again...

The Sunnaudio looks nice, but am I to understand that neither channel has a gain knob?

This seems quite strange given how I use gain to affect mids.

Each channel has a control labeled "volume", I guess it could just as easily be called "gain". There is no master volume. The volume/gain controls seem very much the same as every other preamp I have. What does gain have to do with mids? Gain/Volume should affect all frequencies equally in any clean preamp. There is a sweepable midrange EQ that you can use to tweak the mids.