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  #31  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:58 PM
Schertler Schertler is offline
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Actually, the piezo systems/pickups for steel-string acoustics are all synonyms to a plastic, quacky, unpleasant and untrue sound&voice! Piezos on steel-strings make you only wish of how to totally forget about them.....
However, piezo transducers do sound OK on nylon-stringed guitars, ukuleles as well as on double-basses etc.
Miniature internal mics (condenser, dynamic) are the solution with steel-string acoustics, and this is the area where you really can forget the term Piezo!
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  #32  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:55 PM
shufflebeat shufflebeat is offline
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Originally Posted by phcorrigan View Post
I would say that a lot of professional musicians don't agree with you, including these ToneDexter endorsers: https://audiosprockets.com/artists/
To that list of happy TD users you should also add Mr M Knoppfler who has two of them set up off-stage.



This is apparently a pic of MK's gig rack but I was told separately by someone who is familiar with the stage setup.
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Last edited by shufflebeat; 11-22-2020 at 02:04 PM.
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  #33  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:07 PM
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To that list of happy TD users you should also add Mr M Knoppfler who has two of them set up off-stage.



This is apparently a pic of MK's gig rack but I was told separately by someone who is familiar with the stage setup.
Great news! Thanks Shufflebeat!

Mark Knopfler embrassing using both Kemper and Tonedexter is pretty significant. I hope James May sees that picture, he must be so proud!
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  #34  
Old 11-28-2020, 08:42 AM
sam.spoons sam.spoons is offline
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Up thread somebody mentioned the B-Band UST as being piezo, it is not it is a capacitive trancducer* and, while it is better than a piezo UST, it is still a UST with the narrow band of sound it picks up. They are more difficult to install as they need even pressure and being so thin a tiny unevenness in the saddle to slot will cause uneven string balance. Shame they seem to have gone bust though.

Piezo transducers are super cheap and even dressed up in a party frock they should not cost K&K prices (material costs for a Pure Mini about £2, time to manufacture about 5 minutes ). JJB do a virtually identical SBT for about £20 and the piezo cord used to make Fishman USTs is used by the 1000s of metres by seismologists.

The most effective UST I have is a BigTone bridge on my Aylward Selmer style. The piezo is epoxy encapsulated in a groove in the underside of the floating bridge so it's not under pressure. Still not brilliant on it's own but with the Tone Dexter it sounds like it is miked up...

* My understanding is that it does not generate a voltage like a piezo but the preamp detects the change in capacitance.
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Last edited by sam.spoons; 11-28-2020 at 08:48 AM.
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  #35  
Old 11-29-2020, 06:16 PM
Guitarplayer_PR Guitarplayer_PR is offline
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Originally Posted by Schertler View Post
Actually, the piezo systems/pickups for steel-string acoustics are all synonyms to a plastic, quacky, unpleasant and untrue sound&voice! Piezos on steel-strings make you only wish of how to totally forget about them.....
However, piezo transducers do sound OK on nylon-stringed guitars, ukuleles as well as on double-basses etc.
Miniature internal mics (condenser, dynamic) are the solution with steel-string acoustics, and this is the area where you really can forget the term Piezo!
Well, I don't know about YOUR experience, but mine is different. I own guitars with USTs and have one with LR Baggs Anthem SL. I run both kinds of systems through an LR Baggs Para DI and into a PA. I'm a fan of the Anthem, BTW. That being said, I always have a bit of a problem with the Anthem through a band mix, something that I have absolutely no problem with my UST guitars. OK, those are Ovation guitars, which have a different kind of UST, but the thing is I never have a problem with my O's, and they don't soun quacky at all. OK, they sound like a typical Ovation, but, if you love Ovation, you love Ovation. Nevertheless, my bandmates always prefer when I use my UST guitars than my Taylor with the Anthem.

I can say that I prefer the Anthem when going solo because I love the Taylor when I don't use a band; but most of the time, I play with a band and the ballgame changes
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  #36  
Old 11-30-2020, 08:49 AM
Paleolith54 Paleolith54 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schertler View Post
Actually, the piezo systems/pickups for steel-string acoustics are all synonyms to a plastic, quacky, unpleasant and untrue sound&voice! Piezos on steel-strings make you only wish of how to totally forget about them.....
Wrong. The piezo on my Crowdster sounds great (not good, but great) through a PA on a live stage with no feedback and arguably the best playability out there. Piezos are not all the same, and knowing how to adjust your right hand is key.
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  #37  
Old 11-30-2020, 04:53 PM
Schertler Schertler is offline
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Guitarplayer_PR and Paleolith54, hi there!
Sorry for such a point-blank comments, it is all about my personal experience and ear......
I do hear this first time that piezos may sound great on steel-string acoustics, if so then you are lucky avoiding a long way of searching and experimentation that I was forced to enter in few years back.
Actually, I am thankful to piezo for encouraging me to searching and finding the true and beautiful acoustics' sound which I am now able to hear out of loudspeakers...
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2020, 05:15 PM
Guitarplayer_PR Guitarplayer_PR is offline
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Originally Posted by Schertler View Post
Guitarplayer_PR and Paleolith54, hi there!
Sorry for such a point-blank comments, it is all about my personal experience and ear......
I do hear this first time that piezos may sound great on steel-string acoustics, if so then you are lucky avoiding a long way of searching and experimentation that I was forced to enter in few years back.
Actually, I am thankful to piezo for encouraging me to searching and finding the true and beautiful acoustics' sound which I am now able to hear out of loudspeakers...

Don't need to be sorry. This is an opinion-based thread. In fact, many piezos sound really bad TBH. And EVERYONE knows that an external mic condenser would produce the most authentic tone, for the simple reason that it picks the sound just like we hear it. And internal mic's (my Taylor has an LR Baggs Anthem, so I can relate to that) are great, but they have their limitations. And using the same mic condenser we usually use at a studio recording is totally useless most of the time when playing live. That's why many people use a combination of sources (many of them include piezos, since they pick up the lower registers better than many mics).

The big advantage of piezos, especially UST's. IMO, is that they are friendlier to DIs, preamps and even internal mics than many other types of amplification. And, through a good PA, they sound delightfully "acoustic."
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2020, 07:02 AM
Schertler Schertler is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR View Post
And internal mic's (my Taylor has an LR Baggs Anthem, so I can relate to that) are great, but they have their limitations. And using the same mic condenser we usually use at a studio recording is totally useless most of the time when playing live. That's why many people use a combination of sources (many of them include piezos, since they pick up the lower registers better than many mics).

I have my own Mr. Acoustic pickup-preamp system which is a result of a huge number of experimentation and tryout. This is a system of a miniature condenser and dynamic microphones, the preamp actually is a 2-channel mic preamp combined with Fender Acoustasonic's original 3-way EQ circuit, I have built it using LT Spice software, so the system does not just have an outstanding characteristics but it does not miss anything including low/high registers; LT Spice software allows you to measure everything - sensitivity, diapason, THD, SNR etc.....
However, I should note on to the modern ECM mics, I got even some kindly offered/sent by factories..... all ECM capsules tested do not work well in the body of acoustic guitars, they sound distorted and dirty! I did not only test Japanese Primo mics and American PuiAudio ECM capsules.....
Sadly I did not get any demo-audio of this pickup-preamp, going to record samples soon and then publish for your reviews .....
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  #40  
Old 12-21-2020, 01:24 PM
ballynally ballynally is offline
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Originally Posted by Schertler View Post
Miniature internal mics (condenser, dynamic) are the solution with steel-string acoustics, and this is the area where you really can forget the term Piezo!
I found the opposite. Every internal mic has issues with the low end as it is the most unnatural sound possible.
Put your ear against the soundhole of any guitar. Sounds like crap. Overtones galore. That is NOT the sound of your guitar.
The things they have to do to make the sound picked up by a mic inside somewhat acceptable is evidence that the premise is a faulty one.
Whoever thought that a mic INSIDE a guitar is a good idea clearly wasnt thinking straight. Unless you cut everything below 300Hz to pick up some of the top.
Sound is made by the top, in conjunction with the bridge,amplified by the box. (Back and sides), losing most of the signal in the process.
Amplify the top and forget about the box. Ovation figured that out.
But the UST presented additional issues mainly having to do with amplifying the strings via the saddle which gets most of the signal instead of the top.
Ergo, soundboard,w UST in combi, or, if you need more string sound, a magnetic pickup. Some insist a mic in front is the ultimate sound.
I agree but i still don't use it live, for obvious reasons i don't need to mention.

Last edited by ballynally; 12-21-2020 at 01:35 PM.
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  #41  
Old 12-21-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ballynally View Post
I found the opposite. Every internal mic has issues with the low end as it is the most unnatural sound possible.
I use internal mics quite effectively. Tommy Emmanuel uses one as a key part of his sound. It can work. The key is to have it be part of a dual source system, with another pickup handling the low end where the mic doesn't work, and let the mic handle the high end where most pickups sound unnatural. They've even come up with a few commercial systems that handle this for you - such as the Anthem.
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  #42  
Old 12-21-2020, 02:06 PM
ballynally ballynally is offline
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I use internal mics quite effectively. Tommy Emmanuel uses one as a key part of his sound. It can work. The key is to have it be part of a dual source system, with another pickup handling the low end where the mic doesn't work, and let the mic handle the high end where most pickups sound unnatural. They've even come up with a few commercial systems that handle this for you - such as the Anthem.
yes Doug, of course it CAN be part of a dual system, but then, anything can. As long as you can eliminate the drawbacks which is ALL the low end of internal mics and concentrate on the top (like the Anthem).
I prefer a more direct contact transducer under the soundboard/bridge. To me it seems to be the most honest representation of the top. I have several in combi w either a UST or mag pickup.
My 1930s Kalamazoo K14 sounds completely different from my 000-28vs w the soundboard transducer alone. You do not get that w a UST.
I have tried the Anthem but eventually ended up with a soundboard transducer as i did not really like the internal mic on its own without the UST in the mix, no matter how i eq-ed it.
Now, suffice to say, with a good sound engineer you can make any system work.

Edit: even though the soundboard transducers are very direct, you do have to work a little harder compared to a UST. But that drawback becomes an advantage because the harder you play the better it sounds as opposed to a UST.

Last edited by ballynally; 12-21-2020 at 02:21 PM.
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  #43  
Old 12-21-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ballynally View Post
yes Doug, of course it CAN be part of a dual system, but then, anything can. As long as you can eliminate the drawbacks which is ALL the low end of internal mics and concentrate on the top (like the Anthem).
I prefer a more direct contact transducer under the soundboard/bridge. To me it seems to be the most honest representation of the top. I have several in combi w either a UST or mag pickup.
My 1930s Kalamazoo K14 sounds completely different from my 000-28vs w the soundboard transducer alone. You do not get that w a UST.
I have tried the Anthem but eventually ended up with a soundboard transducer as i did not really like the internal mic on its own without the UST in the mix, no matter how i eq-ed it.
Now, suffice to say, with a good sound engineer you can make any system work.
I don't personally care for the Anthem because of the sound of the Element. I use one of Dazzo, Trance, K&K, or Barbera Soloist paired with a mic, DPA 4061 or Audix L5O, and a Sunnaudio MS-2 preamp. Like you, I generally prefer SBTs, but the Barbera is a great sounding UST that works well - the only UST I've ever been happy with. All these combinations sound terrific right out of the preamp and thru a good PA, no sound engineer massaging required.
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  #44  
Old 12-22-2020, 10:01 AM
ballynally ballynally is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I don't personally care for the Anthem because of the sound of the Element. I use one of Dazzo, Trance, K&K, or Barbera Soloist paired with a mic, DPA 4061 or Audix L5O, and a Sunnaudio MS-2 preamp. Like you, I generally prefer SBTs, but the Barbera is a great sounding UST that works well - the only UST I've ever been happy with. All these combinations sound terrific right out of the preamp and thru a good PA, no sound engineer massaging required.
well, you are so well versed in all the systems, Doug, that your experience will certainly top most of us.
As USTs go, the only one i like is the LRBaggs (w side preamp) that came with my Lakewood J14 jumbo and makes for great strumming and light picking.It might be one pre Element. It's not a guitar for heavy solo work and the known UST issues usually reside there. I can see the point of a UST taking care of the low end with another pickup concentrating on everything above 250Hz, taking advantage of the pros while eliminating the cons.

I'll keep an eye out for the Barbera UST
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