Composite Acoustics

[Health Freak]

Originally Posted by MJH

Do you really feel that way or is the wink just telling us it's like a Taylor/Martin thing?

I have a Rainsong WS1000 and think it is an incredible guitar. I don't know how to add 2 quotes, but astrummer said he thinks CA's have a "woodier" sound. That may be, but I played them both before buying and definitely prefered the Rainsong. CA's are getting a lot of thread time on this forum, but I would tell people to try them both out before buying. It really is like a Taylor/Martin thing.

It was the latter; just hinting at the subjectiveness of things. I like both, but prefer the CA. With unlimited income, I would own both brands, as well as a ton of solid wood guitars.

[JasonA]

I MUCH prefer CA to Rainsong, and I've owned both. But it is, of course, purely subjective, much like any other brand opinions.

[BillBob]

OK, In the interest of countering Poets point about wood vs graphite. I mentioned that I already have numerous wood guitars. Made from various species of wood. And they all sound GREAT!!! Or I would not have bought them. I also mentioned that I've been playing for over 40 years. The fact is that I pick both guitars and gun stocks for the beauty of the wood. But, if you have not played and listened to a CA IN PERSON, you cannot appreciate why I have been smitten by these guitars. Find a CA to play. If you still don't like it because it's "plastic", well, it's not for you. And that is why there are thousands of guitar manufacterers. But, again, don't knock it till you've tried it. IN person!

To each, his own!

BTW, My Ducatis have TONS of Carbon fiber. www.italianmotofest.com

[stoney]

The following is JUST MY OPINION, and by no means meant to alienate anyone. I just think that we live in a time where materials science has given us a wonderful alternative for the construction of musical instruments, and, sentiment aside, the end result is a more useful tool for reaching the desired result.


It's no secret that I am a CA Guitar fan. Mine was purchased after I went into a guitar store to just play around. I had spent a good part of the day at the Gibson custom shop, playing guitars that were brought out for me by the nice folks at the store. Having owned an Anniversary J 200, I was curious about the other "custom" pieces there. That afternoon, I walked into Gruhn's to mess around and saw a composite guitar. Tried it, didn't like it at all, played other stuff for a while. I can honestly say that I don't care what an instrument costs, what kind of wood or other materials are used, or what is written on the headstock. I wasn't shopping, just playing! So, as I was leaving, the floor salesman asked me if I'd like to try something new. He handed me a CA Legacy AE with Vintage Voicing, and I played it for over an hour. To MY ears and hands, this ugly guitar was the best instrument I had ever played. Better than the boutique guitars, better than the D-45 coveted by a friend of mine, better by far than anything I had played at the Gibson shop, and better than my collection of guitars at home. Now, I'm sure that with unlimited funds and unlimited time, I could find another guitar that might strike me as better, but, unfortunately, I've found that any wooden guitar sounds different depending upon the conditions in which it is played regarding temperature and humidity. And, they change as time goes on, and not always for the better. My CA sounds exactly like I want it, now, and will forever.

As for composite guitars all sounding the same; because of the predictablity of the material, and the science applied by the technical geniuses at CA, the guitars can be designed to have a particular tone, giving the musician the chance to get the tone desired without the unpredictability of wooden instruments.

I love all guitars, and wish I could afford to collect good examples of every type. Much of this is, of course, sentimental; the love of beautiful wood, the "care and feeding" of a fine, hand crafted instrument, etc. However, in reaching my goal of making music that is consistently good, I want an instrument, a "tool," if you will, that will not fight me in my endeavor. And, I want a particular sound that is the same all the time. I play outdoors, indoors, day and night. The last thing I need is a guitar that sounds like a wet sock if it happens to be raining. Some absolutely wonderful guitars sound amazing in the studio or the climate controlled acoustic room at the store, but fall short outside of ideal conditions. Such is the nature of wood.

I guess one question I have had to answer is whether the music or the instrument are most important. For me, the answer is the music. I can "ooh and aah" over a nice boutique instrument with my friends, but I'd rather not be worrying about my guitar.

If this makes sense, consider... If not, blame it on the sixties...

Have fun, and keep on keepin' on!

ST in VT

[Tsckey]

Boy! Am I ever relieved that we all like different shapes, sizes, sounds, and looks in for guitars and the materials they are made of. That what makes life so interesting. I still consider my old Martin to be among the most beautiful I have ever seen. It is an irreplaceable work of art. My CA, though, to my ear, is a better musical instrument. It is a wonderful testament to and triumph of modern technology. In its own way it also is a work of art, but not in the same way as my beloved D35. It is not unique. Anybody with the money can buy one just like it. Not so with the Martin. Before I bought it I spent months looking for just the one with the right combination of looks and tone, and it’s the only one I’ve ever encountered like it. Still, the one I play all the time is the CA. It just sounds better to me.

TC

[Joe Peel]

I believe that the beauty of wood and the skill to make a guitar from wood is essential to the art. I suppose that eventually composite guitars will go the way of golf clubs, a new improved model every week, stamped out by the thousands. Mass produced by ford, or callaway. Built by plastic technicians, not by artisans.

Can't get into them.

[Doubleneck]

I hear what you are saying, I absolutely love things make of beautiful wood and the craftmanship that is a part of it. I, however, love both wood and graphite guitars. I think that many "wood" people have not really tried them. The first time I played a CA at Grund guitars in Nashville, I was just amazed at the sound. I think you do sell short the craftmanship that is necessary to pull off what CA does. They are not just rubberstamped out. But to have that sound and to be indestructable is just a thing of beauty in inself.
Steve

[Rich G]

Originally Posted by Poetmonk

I have no idea how Composite Guitars are made but all i see in my thinking is: heat a piece of plastic until soft then smoosh it into a mold and NEXT. Unlike a small shop luthier who taps the wood, carves the bracing for the sound he/she wants, taps the back and sides and top again to see where he/she's going as their putting it together, spray finish, sand, spray finish, sand, tap, spray finish, sand, rub till gloss. Man, that's the romance of guitar building in my eyes, hands and wood working together. Thank God for luthiers.

I have to agree with this sentiment totally. Making composite guitars is not luthiery, so to speak, it's building molds for bodies, bracing, necks, etc. Pouring some kind of stuff into the mold, throw it on the line and let the machines do their work. Just my impression of the whole thing. Sort of reminds me of the old arguments about the large factory guitars versus the small shop or individual builder instruments, but taking it one more step further away from the natural world, the natural experience. I guess you can make a good argument that using composites will actually preserve nature. Hmmm. Unless of course they're make from people.

[Rich G]

Originally Posted by Joe Peel

I believe that the beauty of wood and the skill to make a guitar from wood is essential to the art. I suppose that eventually composite guitars will go the way of golf clubs, a new improved model every week, stamped out by the thousands. Mass produced by ford, or callaway. Built by plastic technicians, not by artisans.

Can't get into them.

I know what you mean.

[Health Freak]

Originally Posted by Rich G

I have to agree with this sentiment totally. Making composite guitars is not luthiery, so to speak, it's building molds for bodies, bracing, necks, etc. Pouring some kind of stuff into the mold, throw it on the line and let the machines do their work.

I'm sure a lot of people that care more about music than the process of how the guitar is built don't really care if it is considered lutherie or not.

Yes there are molds used, but nothing is poured into them. And the body, neck, headstock is all one piece. Talk about the ultimate tonal transfer. The carbon fiber material comes as a fabric that needs to be layed up like any other fabric. It's not just material that's poured into a mole and pops out a guitar in the other end (not everything is done like on the show "How It's Made"). There is alot more skill involved than that.

Sure, the guys at CA may not be able to produce a high end solid wood guitar, but it doesn't mean that their skill set is on some lower pedistal as compared to luthiers.

As a whole, I think that there are people (young and old) that will always like things the way they have always been; if it's new, it's not as good as something that's old.

I enjoy lots of things, old and new. I was a tonewood snob for a long time and thought I just had to pay top dollar for a factory guitar and eventually get a handbuilt. I used to laugh at composite guitars. That is, until I removed the stick from my butt, closed my eyes, and played one.

Since I can only afford one guitar right now, it's the way to go for me. Even still, my next couple of guitars will probably be of the non-wood variety.

Some people like the durability and consistency over the mystique and process of the build. Everyone is different. I don't buy a guitar and hope for it to open up. I don't want to babysit it all the time here in New England and worry about it splitting. I want to be able to play inside, outside, and in the rain without worry. And for that, I don't know of a single luthier that can deliver. But those aeronautical engineer types with their molds sure do fit the bill.

[Health Freak]

Originally Posted by Joe Peel

I believe that the beauty of wood and the skill to make a guitar from wood is essential to the art. I suppose that eventually composite guitars will go the way of golf clubs, a new improved model every week, stamped out by the thousands. Mass produced by ford, or callaway. Built by plastic technicians, not by artisans.

Can't get into them.

I take it you drive a Model T? Or is it a horse and buggy?

[Doubleneck]

Direct question to Joe and Rich. Have you played one?
Steve

[Tsckey]

It seems to me we are talking past each other about two different things: 1) which medium, wood or carbon fiber, provides the best opportunity for artistic expression; and 2) which medium renders the best musical instrument. I have no problem recognizing that the soul of the artist finds its most satisfying and aesthetically pleasing expression in wood. But, I’m not sure that the best medium for building the finest musical instruments isn’t carbon fiber though I don’t think they’re quite there yet. As good as my CA guitar is, for example–and it is exceptionally good--it is still not as spectacular as the custom wood guitar one of my friends purchased from a local luthier; of course, nothing else I’ve ever played is either. But, I suspect as more top guitarists begin to play CA or Rainsong guitars, the demand for more tonal complexity will inform the design and building process, resulting in some awesome instruments in the years to come.

TC

[Doubleneck]

I just admire what CA has done in a fairly short period of time. It really is a quality instrument that I think is as close to revolutionary as it comes, in a traditional world of acoustic guitars. In a sense the odds are stacked against them, but they have pulled it off with a product that delivers. Got to love that.
Steve

[GibsonGuy]

Been watching this thread for a bit. I have a Rainsong WS1000 which I use very often as a gigging guitar. The sound is not "plastic" and amplified with a little EQ you can really dial in the sound that floats your boat. I played the CA and the rainsong and preferred the Rainsong. I really did like the CA also but.....like I said, I purchased the one I preferred sound wise. Both the Rainsong and the CA stay in tune (seems like) forever, no issues with temp. and humidity, great playability, and solid sound.

All that being said, I also own a number of Gibsons that I really love the sound of, different strokes and all that. My buddy loves his Martins, I love my Gibsons. Regardless, we still get along.

Point being (I guess) buy what you like and what you like to play. I've never had anyone complain that I wasn't playing a "real" guitar just because it wasn't made of wood. In addition, as Mahogany, Rosewood etc. get scarce there has to be a viable option if the guitar making art is to continue. Make no mistake, CA and Rainsong have done exhaustive research in the physice of their instruments to make sure that they do not sound like plastic. I can only imagine that continued research and development will lead to continued improvements in the Rainsong / CA sound.