Oh, Steve Goodman...

[Lacks Focus]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

I've often wondered about Take Me Home Country Roads.

So the story goes the co writers were friends of his and he went to see them and they showed him the song. It's said he helped them finish the song, but I've always wondered if he didn't change it up and put his style with it and then took co writer credit.

I think that would have been Bill and Taffy Danoff, who were frequent collaborators with Denver, and performed on several of his records. They later went on to form the Starland Vocal Band.

[Lacks Focus]

Originally Posted by balerman

It sounds like something I heard John Denver say about "City of New Orleans" in an old recording of one of his early concerts.

I agree that the credits on the "Aerie" Album were wrong, but I don't know for sure that JD is the one responsible for putting them there. It hardly seems with his own talent for songwriting he would feel the need to take credit for someone else's material. It seems like an isolated event to me that was just as likely to be someone else's fault.

It seems that people agree that his version with the changed words was sub-par to both Arlo's release as well as others. It certainly was not one of John Denver's often requested hits, so that is more than likely why he stopped performing it. Not some evil plot to prevent Steve Goodman from making money.

Rest in peace Steve Goodman and John Denver!

I think the article mentioned Denver telling Guthrie that the credit grab wasn't his doing. I also got the impression from it that his ceasing performing wasn't intended to hurt Goodman's royalty income - it was just an unforeseen side-effect.

[msbedard]

There is an excellent biography of Steve available entitled: "Steve Goodman, Facing the Music written by Clay Eals with a preface by Studs Terkel and a foreword by Arlo Guthrie.

The link is here: http://ecwpress.com/goodman

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by ozarkrecluse

I've always thought that Steve Goodman set the bar high when it comes to acoustic live performances. When Jethro Burns played with him, you just had to sit back in awe of the amount of talent on display.

He is greatly missed.

Hi OzarkRecluse!

Welcome to the AGF! Glad to see you here!

- Glenn

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by nowgibson

Enjoyed the concert and then watched this:

This short doc of Steve is really beautiful. If you don't wanna watch the whole thing, please do yourself a favor and go to 31:10 where Kris K, with tears in his eyes and his voice trembling, tells about the kind of guy and performer Steve was.

Also, near the beginning JP and Arlo tell some hilarious stories about how they first met Steve.

sm

[balerman]

Originally Posted by Lacks Focus

I think that would have been Bill and Taffy Danoff, who were frequent collaborators with Denver, and performed on several of his records. They later went on to form the Starland Vocal Band.

Yes, it was Bill Danoff and Taffy Nivert, they weren't married at the writing of the song. I believe the majority of the song was written by Bill Danoff. Story is that Bill, Taffy and John got together one night after a show they did together at The Cellar Door in Washington DC. Bill played what he had of the song to John and together they finished it. They performed it together the next night for the first time at The Cellar Door. I always remember Denver being listed last in the credits for that song.

John recorded a number of Bill and Bill/Taffy songs over the years. "I Guess He'd Rather Be in Colorado" was written by Bill, one of my personal favorites.

John Denver created his own label around 1975 called Windsong Records, Starland Vocal Band was the first act he signed.

[tj_mangum]

Regarding John Denver's recording of "City of New Orleans" and taking a co-songwriting credit, in Goodman's biography, by Clay Eals, there is an interesting story.

Goodman was not happy about Denver changing a few words and grabbing a writing credit, but he was a small time folk singer and Denver was huge at the time, so to have him record any of his songs was important dollars.

The story goes that Arlo Guthrie happened to be at the same party as John Denver about the time this came about. Arlo did not know John, but asked if they could speak in private. Arlo took Denver aside and basicly told him what a SOB he was for grabbing a credit and taking money out of the mouth of someone who was dying of lukemia. The next pressing of the album returned the full writing credit to Goodman.

Makes one wonder how much Denver actually contributed to "Country Roads".

[Lacks Focus]

To refresh my memory (now easily 40 years old) I just went back and listened to Denver's first recording of "City of New Orleans," as it appeared on the "Aerie" album. Talk about vapid. Holy cow.

[balerman]

Originally Posted by tj_mangum

Regarding John Denver's recording of "City of New Orleans" and taking a co-songwriting credit, in Goodman's biography, by Clay Eals, there is an interesting story.

Goodman was not happy about Denver changing a few words and grabbing a writing credit, but he was a small time folk singer and Denver was huge at the time, so to have him record any of his songs was important dollars.

The story goes that Arlo Guthrie happened to be at the same party as John Denver about the time this came about. Arlo did not know John, but asked if they could speak in private. Arlo took Denver aside and basicly told him what a SOB he was for grabbing a credit and taking money out of the mouth of someone who was dying of lukemia. The next pressing of the album returned the full writing credit to Goodman.

Makes one wonder how much Denver actually contributed to "Country Roads".

You don't have to wonder about John Denver's contribution to "Country Roads" you can read about it as described by the primary writer of the song here: http://billdanoff.com/BillJohnDenver.htm

John has told the story himself on several occasions as well.

There are quite a few people who have good things to say about Steve Goodman. I don't know that much about him but anytime Steve Goodman's name is brought up there is always a group of people with nothing better to say about him other than he got screwed by John Denver. Do you really know anything about him, or are you just rehashing old stories that may or may not be true?

John Denver's reputation always seemed to be pretty good as far as I'm concerned. So any person with a descent head on their shoulders should be able to see that perhaps someone made a mistake when they put the song credits together. A mistake that was cleared up in future pressings of the album.

It's human nature for people not to like it when someone else wants to change something that they created. Maybe Steve Goodman didn't like John Denver changing his lyrics to begin with and then went off the handle when there was a mistake with the credits on the album. He probably said things to people in his circle that turned into this story. It still doesn't mean that John Denver tried to screw him. All it is is a one sided story told from the perspective of Steve Goodmans author.

[tj_mangum]

Not unusual in the 50's or 60s for a major artist to ask for a share of songwriting - publishing rights in exchange for recording a good tune.
Elvis had a writing credit on Heartbreak Hotel, All Shook Up & Don't Be Cruel.

Goodman and Denver are both dead and we will never know the exact details of City of New Orleans. I met and chatted with Goodman several times way back when and saw him perform many times. If I knew 35 years later this would be a discussion point, I would have asked "Steve, what the hell happened with Denver on City of New Orleans?"

Danoff and Nivert owe a lot to Denver for the success of their song. It would certainly do them no good to bad mouth him then or now. They performed with him and yes, he produced, recorded them and always gave note to their contribution to Country Roads.

Many of us, if given the opportunity, would trade partial rights to a song to have a top artist record it.

[Tone Gopher]

Thanks for the sharin', Larry. A tune that has been filling some of the space in my head recently is "I've got the I-Don't-Know-Where-I'm-Going-but-I'm-Going-Nowhere-in-a-Hurry Blues".

Goodman, Prine, and Bromberg were the go-to artists in my coffee house days. Yeah, that was SO last century.

Cheers!

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

Thanks for the sharin', Larry. A tune that has been filling some of the space in my head recently is "I've got the I-Don't-Know-Where-I'm-Going-but-I'm-Going-Nowhere-in-a-Hurry Blues".

Goodman, Prine, and Bromberg were the go-to artists in my coffee house days. Yeah, that was SO last century.

Cheers!

Gopher, yeah, love that tune. There's a great version on the Easter Tapes CD. My favorite line: "Kick me again and I come up grinnin'."

That was Steve.

[balerman]

Originally Posted by tj_mangum

Not unusual in the 50's or 60s for a major artist to ask for a share of songwriting - publishing rights in exchange for recording a good tune.
Elvis had a writing credit on Heartbreak Hotel, All Shook Up & Don't Be Cruel.

Goodman and Denver are both dead and we will never know the exact details of City of New Orleans. I met and chatted with Goodman several times way back when and saw him perform many times. If I knew 35 years later this would be a discussion point, I would have asked "Steve, what the hell happened with Denver on City of New Orleans?"

Danoff and Nivert owe a lot to Denver for the success of their song. It would certainly do them no good to bad mouth him then or now. They performed with him and yes, he produced, recorded them and always gave note to their contribution to Country Roads.

Many of us, if given the opportunity, would trade partial rights to a song to have a top artist record it.

Well at the time John Denver was not a top artist, he was at the end of a 4 record deal with RCA and in danger of being dropped due to his lack of success.

"Country Roads" was a single that was on the last album in his 4 record deal. It was the song that saved his career and launched him into stardom.

Fact is you are putting the cart before the horse with this point.

Secondly if what you are saying is true then I guess we can't really know for sure that anyone really wrote anything. Maybe Steve Goodman didn't write "City of New Orleans" but got it from some other starving artist even further down the food chain than him.

Before, all you Steve Goodman fans get upset. I don't believe what I just wrote anymore than I believe that John Denver tried to rip him off.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by balerman

Well at the time John Denver was not a top artist, he was at the end of a 4 record deal with RCA and in danger of being dropped due to his lack of success.

"Country Roads" was a single that was on the last album in his 4 record deal. It was the song that saved his career and launched him into stardom.

Fact is you are putting the cart before the horse with this point.

Secondly if what you are saying is true then I guess we can't really know for sure that anyone really wrote anything. Maybe Steve Goodman didn't write "City of New Orleans" but got it from some other starving artist even further down the food chain than him.

Before, all you Steve Goodman fans get upset. I don't believe what I just wrote anymore than I believe that John Denver tried to rip him off.

I don't know the inside story of the whole debacle, but I do know that Denver wasn't one tenth the writer or player that Steve or Prine was.

To change the line from "trainyards full of old black men" to "trainyards full of old gray men" (UGH!) is just bad songwriting, for one, and also smacks of what today we would call political correctness, removing anything that could possibly offend anyone and making the song worse in the process.

My two cents.

sm

[balerman]

Originally Posted by charmedlife417

I don't know the inside story of the whole debacle, but I do know that Denver wasn't one tenth the writer or player that Steve or Prine was.

To change the line from "trainyards full of old black men" to "trainyards full of old gray men" (UGH!) is just bad songwriting, for one, and also smacks of what today we would call political correctness, removing anything that could possibly offend anyone and making the song worse in the process.

My two cents.

sm

Well, everyone has an opinion!

I don't know Steve Goodmans material enough to form an overall opinion. I will say that if "City of New Orleans" is Steve Goodmans best - I prefer John Denver. Though "City of New Orleans" as sung by Arlo Guthrie is a good song.

John Denver was a well loved powerhouse of an artist in the 70's. His record sales speak way better than I do in that regard. He wrote most of his greatest hits. I guess 2+2=4.

People who didn't like his gentle well crafted style of music and how clean his image was have always looked for ways to try to smear him. I for one don't like that.