Recording Live Shows from the Board

[Mtn Man]

We're looking at getting a 1000W powered mixer with at least 12 channels for live sound for a bluegrass band. We also want the ability to record live shows from the board. Is this something we can add on to any mixer later, or are there specific features we need to be looking for? We're currently using a 250W head and it's woefully underpowered.

Also, any recommendations on a good mixer would be appreciated. We're looking to stay in the $500-$1000 range. We can afford $500 today...

Thanks!

Jesse

[louparte]

Most boards can do that, even smaller ones. You need aux outs or tape outs. You may need groups and sub-mix channels, where you can get a mix of each group. But almost any board should be able to do what you want. Even a headphone out could suffice.

Now making a good recording? That's a different but related problem.

Yamaha MG/FX series are good and in your price range. I use one.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Mtn Man

We're looking at getting a 1000W powered mixer with at least 12 channels for live sound for a bluegrass band. We also want the ability to record live shows from the board. Is this something we can add on to any mixer later, or are there specific features we need to be looking for? We're currently using a 250W head and it's woefully underpowered.

Also, any recommendations on a good mixer would be appreciated. We're looking to stay in the $500-$1000 range. We can afford $500 today...

Thanks!

Jesse

It's best if you have direct line outs for each channel which you send to separate inputs on a digital recorder system. For example, if you have 7 channels into the mixer you run 7 separate line outs (one for each channel) to a recorder. Later, you can mix, process, add plug ins, pan, drink coffee, etc. into a stereo mix.

[JanVigne]

Keep in mind adding power is expotential. Each time you double the wattage, you will gain approximately 3dB of headroom to the volume level. In other words, if all things are equal, doubling your wattage into the same speaker system will only add about 3dB of headroom. Your average levels will remain more or less the same but the amp will clip less often. That said, all things are generally not equal and, if you are buying on a budget, you may buy an amp with power that exists only on paper. Quality is somewhat expensive but, IMO, well worth the extra dollars.

Going back to wattage, doubling your wattage from your current 250 watts to 500 watts will provide that 3dB cushion on peak levels when fed into your current speakers. Then going from 500 to 1k watts gives just another 3dB of additional headroom. That should be enough to allow a slight increase in average levels but probably only a few dB at best if you are after clean sound quality without clipping the amp. Most people can notice an increase in level of about 1.5 dB when done in direct comparison to the lower wattage output level. Without a direct comparison, 3dB of increase is barely noticeable to most listeners due largely to the dynamic nature of music. The rest of the wattage in your new 1k watt amp will simply go to peaks with less clipping distortion.

When I was selling audio and someone wanted more volume they typically meant they wanted the sound to be twice as loud. "Twice as loud" averages about ten times your base wattage to provide 10dB of level increase. If you're currently using 250 watts and it's clipping and/or compressing, you would probably be looking at about 2500 watts to satisfy your needs.

The more expedient way to go about this is to increase the sensitivity in the loudspeaker system. Every increase in sensitivity of +3dB equals that equivalent doubling of your wattage. So you could say buying a speaker system with an additional 3dB of output would make your current amp sound as if it had 500 watts. The upside here is this will likely give you more average level whereas buying power alone will give you headroom. Buying a speaker system with an additional 6dB of sensitivity will act as if your amp had that 1k watt of juice.

Check your speaker system before you go shopping. Swapping out less sensitive drivers for higher sensitivity drivers is often less money than a new amp. Buying additional drivers/speaker systems will add to the overall sensitivity of the system and might be a good choice - if you amp can drive the impedance load.

Buying four Ohm drivers in place of eight Ohm drivers will typically provide higher output wattage from your solid state amp. You do, however, need to keep the amp stable into the impedance load so seek some guidance on driver selection here.

The bottom line though is, buying watts alone is usually not very effective at gaining overall volume levels.

[Mtn Man]

I really appreciate the info. I'm still learning so this is all very helpful stuff.

The issue we're having isn't really volume although we could always use more of that. Our idea right now is, any venue that requires more volume is probably going to have their own system. What we're trying to build is something that will handle smaller venues, private parties, things like that. I will say that our first priority before a mixer was getting bigger speakers. As of last night, someone donated some bigger speakers to us, and it definitely made a difference. So now we're focusing on the mixer.

Here's a little more info and I'll post a couple videos too to illustrate what I'm talking about.

This is a youth band and they simply can't generate the power (instrumentally or vocally) that adults can. There's also quite a disparity in volumes from player to player. The banjo is loud, and the guitar is quiet, as is the fiddle (it's a 3/4 student model). Right now we're running three inputs. The upright bass is equipped with a pup and plugs right in. The fiddle gets her own instrument mic. Everyone else (banjo, mandolin, guitar, lead and harmony singers) shares an AT4033 condenser. To achieve the best sound, we need to add one more instrument mic for the guitar player, and also give him his own vocal mic for when he sings lead. He's not only a lot taller than the main lead singer, he's lower volume wise. The condenser picks up his harmonies fine but he doesn't generate the volume to sing lead into the condenser. We were thinking that more wattage would allow us to run five inputs and still generate a pretty good amount of volume without feeding back constantly. We tried to do the single mic thing, but the volume disparities were just too much to overcome. We're teaching the quiet ones to be louder, and the loud ones to be quieter, but these things take time. Meanwhile we want them to sound good.

Here are a couple videos to illustrate the different setups we've used.

This is from yesterday. This is our current system, which includes some pretty good sized speakers (sorry I don't know the specs, I'm still pretty ignorant about this stuff). Like I said I'd like to have the guitar player on his own instrument mic (at least for leads), and he needs a separate vocal mic for lead singing.

Cumberland River - 250W Sound System - 3 Inputs

This is from about a month ago. This was a real gig with an expensive sound system and professional sound guys. This is our preferred setup, more or less.

Cumberland River - Big Honkin' Sound System - 5 Inputs

[JanVigne]

The band is to be congratulated on their playing. That's quite a sound from players of their maturity.


"We were thinking that more wattage would allow us to run five inputs and still generate a pretty good amount of volume without feeding back constantly."


You're still mixing down to the same number of channels out. The number of inputs isn't really affected by how much wattage you use going out unless suddenly you add a more dynamic instrument to the system. For instance, a drum kit would mean you would probably want a bit more power to handle the requirements of good sound from that instrument. Otherwise, the same instruments spread over more inputs still comes out to the same amount of wattage output into the same speaker system.

Overcoming a banjo is tough. The instrument has, at its core, the ability to raise itself up and over other players. For decades it was the lead instrument until resonator guitar and then finally electrified guitar came along.

Can you contact the person(s) who put together the sound system you feel gave you the best sound? Say, in the second video? If you like what they turned out, they could probably give you good advice based on their experience with your group.

[Mtn Man]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

The band is to be congratulated on their playing. That's quite a sound from players of their maturity.

Thanks. They’ve been together since January and have come a long way. They’re all having fun and motivated which makes them really easy to work with. When we started, it took them (as a group) about two weeks to learn a new tune, and several more weeks of practice to get it sounding decent. Now they can learn one in about ten minutes if one of them already knows it. They just teach each other. We’ve literally spent 20 minutes working up a new tune and then gone out and performed it. The singer taught them Cumberland River in about ten minutes. She sang the melody and they all figured out their parts by ear. Can you tell I’m proud?

"We were thinking that more wattage would allow us to run five inputs and still generate a pretty good amount of volume without feeding back constantly."


You're still mixing down to the same number of channels out. The number of inputs isn't really affected by how much wattage you use going out unless suddenly you add a more dynamic instrument to the system. For instance, a drum kit would mean you would probably want a bit more power to handle the requirements of good sound from that instrument. Otherwise, the same instruments spread over more inputs still comes out to the same amount of wattage output into the same speaker system.

Overcoming a banjo is tough. The instrument has, at its core, the ability to raise itself up and over other players. For decades it was the lead instrument until resonator guitar and then finally electrified guitar came along.

Can you contact the person(s) who put together the sound system you feel gave you the best sound? Say, in the second video? If you like what they turned out, they could probably give you good advice based on their experience with your group.

We’re actually friends with the sound guy who did that show and we’ve talked with him a little. He likes our overall setup (single condenser with instrument mics out to the side). It’s really the best thing we’ve been able to come up with to handle all the harmony singers. We haven’t talked to him in about a month though. Might be a good idea to check back in and bounce some ideas off him.

Someone else was telling me that the farther away from the speakers your power source is, the more power you lose. We’re currently using a 30 foot snake and unpowered speakers. Should be we looking at powered speakers and an unpowered mixer instead? How would that affect our recording capability? What’s the downside of powered speakers and an unpowered mixer?

Also, it seems like the more inputs we use, the less volume and the more feedback we get. What’s causing that if it’s not a power issue? We have a pretty important gig tomorrow and we’re providing the system. If we could get the guitar player mic’d separately (using our current system) that would be a huge benefit to our sound. The way I understand it, every input you use sucks a little power from the system, so you end up turning down the other inputs to compensate. Trying to get the volume we want results in feedback. Are we doing something wrong? You think the monitor is causing it?

[JanVigne]

"We’ve literally spent 20 minutes working up a new tune and then gone out and performed it. The singer taught them Cumberland River in about ten minutes. She sang the melody and they all figured out their parts by ear. Can you tell I’m proud?
"



Awwwwww, now you're just tryin' to make me feel bad. That's amazing. These kids are doing great!





"Someone else was telling me that the farther away from the speakers your power source is, the more power you lose."



Beware of free advice, even my own.

I'm not at all sure what your advisor was thinking about but, in general, no, you don't lose power as your speakers are placed farther from your amp. I assume what this person might have meant was to make certain you have a speaker cable with sufficient gauge to carry the distance. That's the only thing I can think of which would lose power over distance. An 18AWG (American Wire Gauge) speaker cable is totally reliable for up to 50' runs. Using 12AWG cables for that set up only makes your job more difficult as 12AWG cable is thicker and more difficult to route than would be 18AWG cable. If you are placing your amp and speakers any further apart that 50', you should step down in gauge to a 16AWG or thicker.

Power loss related to wire gauge though is fairly evenly distributed across the frequency bandwidth and all frequencies will lose about the same amount of power due to the resistance in the cable. Therefore, you won't roll off the highs or lows relative to the mids by using a lighter gauge cable and the losses are fairly minimal with 50' being just a suggestion for how far to run an 18AWG cable. You do want to pay some attention to the inductance and capacitance of a cable as you extend its length. These values will impact specific frequency bandwidths. Most speaker cables though are just fine for your needs.

You can, if you'd prefer to save some money, ignore the pricier cables from the pro sound market who include their middle man profit by having an cable builder put their name on the jacket of an otherwise generic cable, and head to Home Depot. Buy one of their outdoor extension cables (orange with a black stripe) and snip off the plugs or sold in bulk off a spool. Inside you'll find three conductors, one of which can be ignored, and you'll need to attach either bare wire connections to your amp and speakers or some appropriate connectors for your system. This would make one set of two conductor cables to one speaker system from one channel of your amp.

Look at the cable and decide how you want to use it. You have an extra conductor with just one pair being used. Since most solid state amps have a common ground, use one conductor for ground and use the other two for two speaker cabinets; one leg run to each cabinet if their location permits. You can make up multiple speaker runs by loosely twisting two extension cables together and using individual conductors in each cable. The extension cables are very cheap and yet very good quality copper so don't be afraid of someone saying you're not doing cable runs correctly. Just listen to the end result and you'll have your answer and some extra money to spend on more important gear.


Powered speakers are good for saving money since you're not buying the additional chassis components for a traditional amplifier. The amp has (hopefully) been chosen, or even designed, specifically for the speaker load of that cabinet. Powered speakers make set up relatively easy. Though, as with all things audio, for every upside, there's a corresponding downside. The more noticeable con to powered speakers is you have an amp built into your speakers. What do you do when you want to upgrade one of those two components but not the other? If you cannot bypass one of the parts, you'll have to trade in both. Now your initial savings works against you.

I think most techs would rather run longer, shielded line level cables to a powered speaker than they would speaker cables to avoid some noise problems but with powered speakers you must run your AC cable to the speaker. Now you've introduced another source of noise to the stage where you might not want it. IMO it's six of one and half dozen of the other as to whether powered systems are really beneficial. By removing the power amp from your mixing board, you've taken one of the most significant sources of noise (the power supply of a high powered amp) out of the most sensitive to noise components in your set up. The alternative not often seen in this type of set up is to buy separate everything and place your mixer in one location and your separate amp and speakers closer together. That makes for more expense since you're buying duplicates of chassis and power supplies and, can in some instances, place your amp away from direct control of the board operator. This, that or another, there's always compromises to debate.






"Also, it seems like the more inputs we use, the less volume and the more feedback we get. What’s causing that if it’s not a power issue?"



The power amp does its own thing. It has "X" number of inputs and a corresponding number of outputs. In its own world, it doesn't really matter how many inputs you run to the mixer. It is only taking the output of the mixer and stepping it up in Voltage and current.

Feedback can minimize your volume level out since you would be picking up out of phase signals from other sources. Every time you add another mic, you risk feedback and the first answer to avoiding feedback, if you want to use more mics, is to lower the overall level. The this or that connundrum again. There are multiple ways around the issue, usually centered on mic pattern and placement.



"The way I understand it, every input you use sucks a little power from the system, so you end up turning down the other inputs to compensate. Trying to get the volume we want results in feedback. You think the monitor is causing it?"


Yes and no. Yes, the monitor might be the source of your feedback but it can only occur if a mic picks up the output of the monitor. Got that? It's a two way street to feedback. There must be a source and there must be a pick up for that source. The pick up of the source's output is being put back into the system out of phase with the direct incoming signal to your pick up. The result is feedback. Switch off the monitors and you can probably raise your overall level by several Decibels. But then you have no monitors. So your answer is in your monitor placement relative to your microphone placement and the polar patterns each has.

Cardiod mics have good rejection of input from the rear which minimizes feedback. Hyper-cardiods are even more specific in their pick up pattern. Omni-directional are going to find that signal from the monitor virtually anywhere you place them. So, first, finding the right microphone(s) becomes your prime objective. Teaching your talent how to correctly use a mic is the next.

Again, you'll run into a trade off of a mic that doesn't pick up monitor signals also doesn't pick up those players standing slightly off to the side of the mic as would a mic with a wider pick up pattern. Ying and Yang.

I'd say it best for you to sit down with a trusted sound tech and get some pointers. Since every situation you go into will be somewhat unlike the last or the next, flexibility is key to a good system design and set up. And the mark of a really good tech.

I don't feel those traits can be adequately taught on a forum since you won't have a forum around you when you do your next set up. Leaning how to do this is a matter of doing it lots of times until you can sort of look at a situation and get an idea of how to approach it successfully. There are certainly rules to follow and there are books and on line guides you can research. But, the bottom line here is, every set up has its own peculiarities and you need to know how to deal with them on an as is basis. Those are things which aren't really in the books but come as you do set ups one after the other. Spending time with someone who has that experience is probably the best advice I would give you. Watching other techs and how they go about a good set up helps tremendously and even more - if you like the results they achieved - when you can approach the tech afterwards and ask a few questions. IMO the worst type of tech is the one who does everything he same every time and then blames the venue for their bad results. The best tech is the one who walks in, assesses the situation and gets an idea in their head how to approach the venue's good and bad points. Then, if they are willing to say things need to be changed slightly for this situation, they're a good tech.

Though, in the end, it's your butt that's on the line every time you walk into a new venue. The "talent" is important to the show but the talent can only come across when the technical part of the set up has some unseen talent of their own.


Good luck. That's one heck of a group of kids you have to work with.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Mtn Man

...
Also, it seems like the more inputs we use, the less volume and the more feedback we get. What’s causing that if it’s not a power issue? We have a pretty important gig tomorrow and we’re providing the system. If we could get the guitar player mic’d separately (using our current system) that would be a huge benefit to our sound. The way I understand it, every input you use sucks a little power from the system, so you end up turning down the other inputs to compensate. Trying to get the volume we want results in feedback. Are we doing something wrong? You think the monitor is causing it?

It definitely _is not_ the case that each input "sucks a little power from the system."

It definitely _is_ the case that each open mic does and must add to the likelihood of feedback.

In general, feedback and power level are unrelated.

Feedback is related to number of mics, mic patterns, gain settings, speaker levels, speaker placement, and room interaction. In other words, it's not at all a simple subject.

As a rough rule of thumb, you need more power and/or more efficient speakers if you're suffering distortion when you try to reach your audience.

If you're experiencing feedback you need to reduce the speaker volume on stage and/or reduce mic sensitivity/preamp gain. This includes understanding the pickup patterns of the mics and arranging them so their nulls point at the speaker sources.

Fran