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Old 07-19-2013, 05:16 PM
Bill Reid Bill Reid is offline
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Default Writing scores direct from guitar

I was talking with a friend who said he has a "box" that plugs into his guitar (1/4") and carries the signal to a music scoring program (in his case, Sibelius, I think), actually scoring as he plays. I believe he called it a Firepod. When I search for "Firepod," I find a pretty complex (and expensive) unit from Presonus now called the "FP-10," a complete recording sustem (which has been discontinued).

I'm really looking for a simple scoring system that I can use informally with a guitar; once again, the end result needs to be a printable music score, not simply a sound or sequencer file. I don't really want to use the guitar as a primary controller, but maybe that's what it really is (the signal into the "box" is apparently carried by a simple guitar cable, not even TRS, then it goes out to the computer via firewire).

It makes sense that such an accessory would exist, but I can't seem to find it on the Web.

I looked at an AGF Firepod thread from early 2011, but the topic wasn't relevant to me.

Ideas? CHEAP ideas? EASY ideas? I'm too old for a long learning curve.

THANKS!
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:27 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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I'm probably not up on all the latest gizmos in this space, but the basic approach is some sort of converter that outputs midi that your scoring program can read. You can have a midi pickup on your guitar (6 pin hex) or there are simple audio-to-midi converters. There's at least one app for the iphone that you can sing into and it will (or claims to) recognize your pitches and convert it to notation. I tried it, and if what it wrote was what I sang, then I'm an even worse singer than I thought!

In practice, these things have never worked well, at least for me. It's faster and more accurate to just enter the music with a (computer) keyboard.A midi keyboard might be a tad more handy - still not performance, just entering notes, but I haven't been up for the learning curve to try that.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:40 PM
el_kabong el_kabong is offline
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I'd guess Doug is on the right track. There are, of course, MIDI programs that will do exactly what you want (even some shareware, I think).

I have, at the moment, one guitar fitted with the RMC Acoustic Gold hexaphonic pickups that produces MIDI output and am planning on adding this capability to an electric in the near future. Because the strings sit right on these individual piezo pickups, they actually track pretty well, but it helps to have an outboard synth to process the signal and tweak the input sensitivity settings. RMC link here: http://www.rmcpickup.com/

The least expensive hardware option for you to retrofit an existing acoustic (or electric) guitar might well be a used Roland GK-2 or GK-3 pickup, which can typically be found on eBay for $100 to $150 typically. New they run around $230 or so.

Also, some guitars come with MIDI pickups already installed, notably the Godin Multiac (which uses RMCs, btw), along with various others.

I don't have any useful info on audio-to-MIDI conversion, so perhaps someone else will chime in on that.

Hope that helps.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:00 AM
Fruitloop Fruitloop is offline
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There's also the option of getting a MIDI-guitar, similar to a keyboard controller but in guitar form. I have never tried one so can't comment on the playability but at least it should be 100% accurate as it doesn't do any converting.

http://www.thomann.de/fi/you_rock_guitar_yrg1000.htm

Not terribly expensive and it can be used as a controller for rock band
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Fruitloop View Post
TI have never tried one so can't comment on the playability but at least it should be 100% accurate as it doesn't do any converting.
You'd *think* so, but clearly you haven't tried one :-) Actually, they still convert, they just convert 1 string at a time, so it's possible to communicate multiple notes on multiple strings. The ones that take a single signal from the guitar can't really handle chords, usually. I've been trying guitar synths since the 80's when the ill-fated Arp guitar synthesizer basically killed the company. They've greatly improved, but they're still touchy, difficult things to work with. For notation, there are a host of issues that would be a big challenge to solve, even if the midi interface was completely accurate. Solving that part of the problem - which hasn't been completely nailed after 30+ years of work - is only the beginning. If you think about it, there's a huge difference between capturing what you really played, and creating instructions (in the form of music/tab) for someone else to play it.

The closest thing I've seen to working on the extraction part of the problem is the Melodyne Celemony software, which can handle polyphonic material, analyze it, extract all the notes and timing, and actually prints out a crude standard notation score. Notation isn't it's core purpose, but it's tantalizing that it works as well as it does. I asked the creator about going after transcribing with it several years ago at NAMM, and he said he was aware of the potential, but wasn't sure it would get on their radar, since it'd be a lot of work (and likely a tiny market) to address.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:17 PM
Fruitloop Fruitloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
You'd *think* so, but clearly you haven't tried one :-) Actually, they still convert, they just convert 1 string at a time, so it's possible to communicate multiple notes on multiple strings. The ones that take a single signal from the guitar can't really handle chords, usually. I've been trying guitar synths since the 80's when the ill-fated Arp guitar synthesizer basically killed the company. They've greatly improved, but they're still touchy, difficult things to work with. For notation, there are a host of issues that would be a big challenge to solve, even if the midi interface was completely accurate. Solving that part of the problem - which hasn't been completely nailed after 30+ years of work - is only the beginning. If you think about it, there's a huge difference between capturing what you really played, and creating instructions (in the form of music/tab) for someone else to play it.

The closest thing I've seen to working on the extraction part of the problem is the Melodyne Celemony software, which can handle polyphonic material, analyze it, extract all the notes and timing, and actually prints out a crude standard notation score. Notation isn't it's core purpose, but it's tantalizing that it works as well as it does. I asked the creator about going after transcribing with it several years ago at NAMM, and he said he was aware of the potential, but wasn't sure it would get on their radar, since it'd be a lot of work (and likely a tiny market) to address.
Actually it doesn't do any converting, if you look more closely you'll see it doesn't have strings across the fretboard. It works much in the same way as a keyboard except you pluck the string. The fretboard is touch sensitive and registers your fingers.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fruitloop View Post
Actually it doesn't do any converting, if you look more closely you'll see it doesn't have strings across the fretboard. It works much in the same way as a keyboard except you pluck the string. The fretboard is touch sensitive and registers your fingers.

I'm sorry, I didn't click thru to the link. I thought you meant a midi pickup. Yes, this idea is another approach. I had a Z-Tar at one time: http://www.starrlabs.com/ same idea, higher end product. Nice to see some cheaper options with these. The ZTar at least, came with different issues. They don't really play like a guitar, it's kind of like having a keyboard with a guitar layout. Pretty hard to play guitaristically on them, at least with the ones I had. A cool instrument in it's own right, but I at least found I had to approach it as sort of a completely different thing, not something I could just pick up and play like a normal guitar. Its hard to see how the You Rock one works. Does it use strings on the fretboard? One of the early Roland synths tried using actual strings - a real guitar - with each fret cut, so that pressing the string acted as a switch on a specific note. There were a few attempts at that, I think it was Baldwin who made the Guit-Organ that used the same idea, the guitar as switches to trigger an organ module. That idea died out quickly tho, Roland abandoned it for the midi pickup. Not sure what the issues were with that idea, it still seems better than pitch detection.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:51 PM
Fruitloop Fruitloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I'm sorry, I didn't click thru to the link. I thought you meant a midi pickup. Yes, this idea is another approach. I had a Z-Tar at one time: http://www.starrlabs.com/ same idea, higher end product. Nice to see some cheaper options with these. The ZTar at least, came with different issues. They don't really play like a guitar, it's kind of like having a keyboard with a guitar layout. Pretty hard to play guitaristically on them, at least with the ones I had. A cool instrument in it's own right, but I at least found I had to approach it as sort of a completely different thing, not something I could just pick up and play like a normal guitar. Its hard to see how the You Rock one works. Does it use strings on the fretboard? One of the early Roland synths tried using actual strings - a real guitar - with each fret cut, so that pressing the string acted as a switch on a specific note. There were a few attempts at that, I think it was Baldwin who made the Guit-Organ that used the same idea, the guitar as switches to trigger an organ module. That idea died out quickly tho, Roland abandoned it for the midi pickup. Not sure what the issues were with that idea, it still seems better than pitch detection.
Well you know a lot more than I do on the subject but I would bet the You Rock guitar plays the same ZTar. From what I can see it doesn't have strings on the fretoard. I checked the site and they claim it is sensitive to hammer on/pull offs, slides etc, not sure how well it works.

My thinking was that it would be used primarily as a device for entering notation and for that I can see it working well.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fruitloop View Post
My thinking was that it would be used primarily as a device for entering notation and for that I can see it working well.
You could probably do the step notation approach with it. Lets you hit the string/fret you want instead of having to think "that's an A", etc. But it's the timing where things get all wonky, and that's always the part I find the most difficult when tanscribing. I'd be happy with a gizmo that let me tap a rhythm against a click track and accurately recorded the rhythm, but even doing that appears pretty impossible, for anything but the simplest case, not where it gets hairy.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:03 AM
Steev Steev is offline
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This sounds like it's possibly a step forward. Midi Guitar.
There's free Beta download.
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:50 AM
Fruitloop Fruitloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
You could probably do the step notation approach with it. Lets you hit the string/fret you want instead of having to think "that's an A", etc. But it's the timing where things get all wonky, and that's always the part I find the most difficult when tanscribing. I'd be happy with a gizmo that let me tap a rhythm against a click track and accurately recorded the rhythm, but even doing that appears pretty impossible, for anything but the simplest case, not where it gets hairy.
Just watched this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXE48VBTIjo) and I must say I'm really impressed. It seems like a really able midi controller for guitarists, and Tom Quayle knows what he's talking about. Tempted to buy one
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steev View Post
This sounds like it's possibly a step forward. Midi Guitar.
There's free Beta download.
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/
I tried the beta but my computer has horrible latency so didn't get much out of it. From what I could assess though the tracking wasn't all that great on chords, and it was pretty sensitive to overtones and miscallenous sounds.

Does look promising though, hard to judge from the little I tried it.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:34 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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That certainly looks a lot like the Ztar, and at a much more affordable price. I think there are formidible challenges to using anything like this for tab, even if the notes are captured, but I guess it depends in part on your expectations. Let us know how it works if you try it!
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:47 PM
mcsmyth9 mcsmyth9 is offline
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Hi, Anyone looking at midi guitar should check out the Fishman Triple Play. http://www.fishman.com/tripleplay I've had one for a few months and it works great. Easy to install and tracks much better than the Godin hex pickup guitars. I got it to control soft synths on my ipad and with the addition of a camera connection kit to attach the usb dongle it makes for a reliable wireless connection. As for using a midi guitar for notation, no matter how well the guitar tracks, it will always be a disappointing solution for notation. You have to play with perfectly clean technique and perfectly in time to come up with anything close to usable ( this is using real time input) and even at that you will spend almost as much time cleaning up the mistakes as you would have if you had manually input from the beginning. Step recording is more accurate but realy not much quicker than using the virtual fretboard input that most notation programs offer. Anyway, check out the youtube videos for the triple play.
Regards, Brian
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:43 AM
Bill Reid Bill Reid is offline
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Thanks for the help. If I end up with a solution, I'll post it.
.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:53 PM
myersbw myersbw is offline
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Yes, Finale or Sibelius can do it direct one note at a time. I, too, would recommend the Fishman Triple Play (saw & played with it at Macworld Expo). That will let you get a full midi input into a computer.

For monophonic, you can connect the guitar direct of via an inexpensive mixer if you have at least have a line audio input in the machine. Fine for leads, but a major pain for chords (will take some score editing). The Triple play is pricey ($400 or?) as it includes a large suite of software (plugins, etc.). And, it's an attach/leave/remove system...nothing permanent if you don't want it to be.

If you just buy something like a Roland hexaphonic pickup or similar, your guitar can now push midi in via any inexpensive midi interface (Tascam US122 for example) and whatever program you use will score it. But, you'll need Logic, Finale, Sibelius, etc., or similar to produce scores. Some faculty at a university I support are slowly migrating to Sibelius as they feel the small accents are much easier to deal with there vs. Finale (the two scoring "biggies").

By the time you piece pricey components, I'd just buy the Triple Play for starts.

My 2 cents,
BradM
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