Brainstorm with me, Please

[k_russell]

I have been playing at some original material open mics and house concerts lately. Quite a few talented songwriters show up at these gatherings. These people are writing and performing as a hobby and know that making a living as a song writer today is close to impossible.

Would Smokey Robinson, Sam Cook, Bob Dylan, Laura Nyro and other writers survive today? A generation earlier gave us Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Hoagie Carmichael and others. Would we even recognize these talents if they were working today?

So here is the exercise. How would a songwriter make a living in 2020 writing songs? By songs, I don't mean the cookie cutter commercial tunes that flood the air waves.

No wrong answers, Just ideas, please.

[Mr. Jelly]

Here's a shot. Start a YouTube thing with the singer songwriter doing it. It being dealing with the realities of the learning curve of being a singer songwriter writing , playing anywhere and everywhere. Along with the YouTube learning curve. There are places across the country that they can play but the pay may be a hotel room and a hot meal. Or not. Record the struggle. Play the tunes. Write the songs. What would Woody do?

[Silly Moustache]

I think the quality of "good" and/or commercial songs changes with the generations.
The OP mentions the wonderful time of the American song book ('20s to '50s) with names like George Gershwin, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Jerome Kern, Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, and Richard Rodgers, among others - many of whom were tin-pan alley writers/composers who were churning out songs for films and shows.

The essence of these songs were romance and melody, and then the swing.
Although popular music had been around for some time before, the advent of recording and radio enable d the music of that era to bloom in in the US spreading widely.
Similar creativity was emerging in Europe but a couple of world wars limited matters more than somewhat with so much talent killed off and facilities destroyed.

'50s ? Rock 'n' roll. Largely responsible for the destruction of melodic big bands and fine singers, but small band jazz endured.
In Europe at least - Latin American music became very popular.

'60s ? something of a new beginning with the advent of more ready access to electric amps, p.a. and guitars. the rise of the British pop and R&B music scene was also exported into the continent and the USA although effectively reselling American style music back to the source.

'70s ? US and UK singer-songwriters, rock and alt country become bug business. Lots of creative music and lyrics.

'80s ? a definite move toward commercialised banality

'90s ? I had totally lost interest in pop music - more banality.

'00s ? I had to look these up - recognised hardly anything - disappearance of musicians, rise of "boy" & "girl" bands -all very much about sexy looks, 2/4 beats, videos etc.

Last 20 years ? Max Martin formula. sigh.

[Bob Womack]

I know of a couple of songwriters who make their living in it these days. Both went to Nashville and worked their way into songwriting circles. The way it works for them is collaboration. They get a call and are asked to join a song or album project. They are paid a fee to sit down with the artist and develop the artists ideas for them. There may be more than one collaborator in the group. On the back side of the project, any song they are involved with, they will also share credit and royalties.

On the higher-profile projects there are sometimes artists who want all the credit. They want to appear to be singer-songwriters so they will do the deal as a buy-out, receiving a lump sum of money for a song and not credit and that is that.

Bob

[Daniel Grenier]

I have taken the liberty of copying a recent article by well-known and Award-winning Canadian Singer Songwriter Lynn Miles. The article appears in the current issue of the Canadian folk magazine Penguin Eggs (Issue 84, winter 2019).

I trust I am not infringing by doing this and I also trust interested folks here - especially the OP - will find Lynn's point of view very poignant and factual tho likely disturbing and perhaps discouraging.

It is a bit of a long read but very much worth the time if you have any stake in this "game".
=================

By Lynn Miles. Singer-Songwriter. Ottawa, Canada:

I'm a lifer. I've been making music since the day I was born, and I'll go out playing music. Because I've been doing this for so long, I remember when (music) had value. We didn't give it away for free. And because we didn't give it away for free, we all contributed to a sustainable food chain.

This food chain also included small record companies run by people who were in it for the love of music, music publishers, booking agents. We all survived and managed to make a reasonable living because the music we made had value. We could sell a CD. How do we do that now that CDs are almost obsolete and streaming services are all the rage, and they have stats like these?:

(US figures) Minimum monthly wage=$1472. Monthly streams to earn minimum wage= Apple 200,272. Spotify 336,842. YouTube 2,1333,333.

If you're Drake, this might contribute to the payments on your mansion but for the rest of us, this is a disaster. Taylor Swift earned about $230,000 for her song Shake It Off, which garnered 46.3 million streams; most musicians won't generate that many streams in a lifetime. One million streams on Spotify translates to about $4,370. In my perfect imaginary world, all creators and musicians would go on strike until a reasonable and fair royalty rate was agreed upon, our governments, record companies, and unions would march in the strike with us.

But, it is definitely not a perfect world. There are young and up-and-coming artists who have only lived in a time of streaming, so I understand that mature artists will know what I'm talking about when I say, we lived through a time when we could sell our music and it would contribute to our standard of living, and it was awesome! We had an income stream we could count on. We had royalties we could count on. We could record and know that the recording costs would be covered, and we would make a profit that we could use to pay for another recording, or help pay touring costs, rent, etc. This lead to having the luxury of time. We didn't have to use up hours in our day working on our social media presence, booking more shows because of less royalties, or working on our "side hustle".

We could just be artists. I do think we lived in a golden age. Of course, we're not the only group to be devalued because of the Internet. Journalists, photographers, the list goes on. We live in an "Uber Society" or a "Gig Economy". Nobody cares about the back story. Everybody wants something now, for as cheap as possible, whether it's a flat screen TV or a song. Young artists don't know what that's like, an I feel for them. Trust us old folks, it was great..

My fear in all of this is not all about the money. My fear is about the devaluation of our art. If we were plumbers, we would not accept making less and less money for the same work over a course of years, especially if we kept getting better at our craft. But because we're artists and we are driven, compelled to create_ we'll do it regardless of the outcome. Record companies have always known this; that's why so many deals were/are so bad for so many artists. If artists don't set a value on the work they do, the work they create, no one else will, because we're living at a time when cheap and fast is the order of the day.

A cover charge is a case in point. Even a $5.00 cover charge sends a message that "this is worth something, shut up and listen". Passing the hat, even though you might make a bit more coin, sends the message "if you like this would you mind making a contribution, and maybe listen to my song". Most artists are fortunate enough to have true fans. You know the ones. They pay to get into your shows, they buy a CD even if they don't have a CD player. They participate in your crowdfunding. They are patrons of the arts. and if we didn't have them, I'm not sure where many of us would be.

They are also the folks who put concerts on in their homes, or at the local art gallery, or church. They save our lives on a weekly basis. I've taken to telling my audiences what the Spotify breakdown is. I love my audience. they support me, and they are always shocked to hear the numbers. Which means, they are our FANS and they don't know what's happening! If they don't know what's going on out there. then no one does.

I don't have any answers but I do think we need to value what we do. I just ran a crowdfunding campaign to make my fifteenth album, because I'm a lifer.

[Slothead56]

Originally Posted by Daniel Grenier

I have taken the liberty of copying a recent article by well-known and Award-winning Canadian Singer Songwriter Lynn Miles. The article appears in the current issue of the Canadian folk magazine Penguin Eggs (Issue 84, winter 2019).

I trust I am not infringing by doing this and I also trust interested folks here - especially the OP - will find Lynn's point of view very poignant and factual tho likely disturbing and perhaps discouraging.

It is a bit of a long read but very much worth the time if you have any stake in this "game".
=================

By Lynn Miles. Singer-Songwriter. Ottawa, Canada:

I'm a lifer. I've been making music since the day I was born, and I'll go out playing music. Because I've been doing this for so long, I remember when (music) had value. We didn't give it away for free. And because we didn't give it away for free, we all contributed to a sustainable food chain.

This food chain also included small record companies run by people who were in it for the love of music, music publishers, booking agents. We all survived and managed to make a reasonable living because the music we made had value. We could sell a CD. How do we do that now that CDs are almost obsolete and streaming services are all the rage, and they have stats like these?:

(US figures) Minimum monthly wage=$1472. Monthly streams to earn minimum wage= Apple 200,272. Spotify 336,842. YouTube 2,1333,333.

If you're Drake, this might contribute to the payments on your mansion but for the rest of us, this is a disaster. Taylor Swift earned about $230,000 for her song Shake It Off, which garnered 46.3 million streams; most musicians won't generate that many streams in a lifetime. One million streams on Spotify translates to about $4,370. In my perfect imaginary world, all creators and musicians would go on strike until a reasonable and fair royalty rate was agreed upon, our governments, record companies, and unions would march in the strike with us.

But, it is definitely not a perfect world. There are young and up-and-coming artists who have only lived in a time of streaming, so I understand that mature artists will know what I'm talking about when I say, we lived through a time when we could sell our music and it would contribute to our standard of living, and it was awesome! We had an income stream we could count on. We had royalties we could count on. We could record and know that the recording costs would be covered, and we would make a profit that we could use to pay for another recording, or help pay touring costs, rent, etc. This lead to having the luxury of time. We didn't have to use up hours in our day working on our social media presence, booking more shows because of less royalties, or working on our "side hustle".

We could just be artists. I do think we lived in a golden age. Of course, we're not the only group to be devalued because of the Internet. Journalists, photographers, the list goes on. We live in an "Uber Society" or a "Gig Economy". Nobody cares about the back story. Everybody wants something now, for as cheap as possible, whether it's a flat screen TV or a song. Young artists don't know what that's like, an I feel for them. Trust us old folks, it was great..

My fear in all of this is not all about the money. My fear is about the devaluation of our art. If we were plumbers, we would not accept making less and less money for the same work over a course of years, especially if we kept getting better at our craft. But because we're artists and we are driven, compelled to create_ we'll do it regardless of the outcome. Record companies have always known this; that's why so many deals were/are so bad for so many artists. If artists don't set a value on the work they do, the work they create, no one else will, because we're living at a time when cheap and fast is the order of the day.

A cover charge is a case in point. Even a $5.00 cover charge sends a message that "this is worth something, shut up and listen". Passing the hat, even though you might make a bit more coin, sends the message "if you like this would you mind making a contribution, and maybe listen to my song". Most artists are fortunate enough to have true fans. You know the ones. They pay to get into your shows, they buy a CD even if they don't have a CD player. They participate in your crowdfunding. They are patrons of the arts. and if we didn't have them, I'm not sure where many of us would be.

They are also the folks who put concerts on in their homes, or at the local art gallery, or church. They save our lives on a weekly basis. I've taken to telling my audiences what the Spotify breakdown is. I love my audience. they support me, and they are always shocked to hear the numbers. Which means, they are our FANS and they don't know what's happening! If they don't know what's going on out there. then no one does.

I don't have any answers but I do think we need to value what we do. I just ran a crowdfunding campaign to make my fifteenth album, because I'm a lifer.

Interesting info Bob. I always wondered how streaming music worked for the artist. This certainly explains the rapid inflation of concert ticket prices.

To the original question, I think Andy got it right. It’s all relevant to the times we live in. Today’s version of the Great American Songbook writers include older guys like James Taylor, Jackson Browne, Joni, etc. (Dozens more but I’m partial too SoCal folk rock.)

To me the great new songwriters are guys like Jason Isbell...again, too many to mention. There is major talent out there But the pool is a lot wider and deeper.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by k_russell

I have been playing at some original material open mics and house concerts lately. Quite a few talented songwriters show up at these gatherings. These people are writing and performing as a hobby and know that making a living as a song writer today is close to impossible.

Would Smokey Robinson, Sam Cook, Bob Dylan, Laura Nyro and other writers survive today? A generation earlier gave us Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Hoagie Carmichael and others. Would we even recognize these talents if they were working today?

So here is the exercise. How would a songwriter make a living in 2020 writing songs? By songs, I don't mean the cookie cutter commercial tunes that flood the air waves.

No wrong answers, Just ideas, please.

Well the subject is so complex and involves so many variables today that did not exist even 20 years ago, that direct comparison is probably hit and mis marginal at best.
But here goes in order.
#1. Close to impossible ? yes and no. Yes in that making a living as a songwriter has always been extremely competitive and perhaps harder today because of the shear numbers of the "competitive pool" is exponentially larger these days.
No. in that there still are a number songwriters making a living But they are the best, of the best, or the best.

#2 Yes dedicated songwriters (Like those of past) still survive today, and Yes great songs still stand out today. But arguably what has changed is the delivery systems today being much more diffuse and the filters that existed up until the proliferation of internet, are now non existent, so the pool of "self published" mediocre songs has exploded making it harder to "filter" and find the truly talented.


.

How would a songwriter make a living in 2020 writing songs? By songs, I don't mean the cookie cutter commercial tunes that flood the air waves.

This is indeed the conundrum because the real money is still pedaling songs to label artists to record and these days the labels have a very hard time wrenching themselves away from "the formula"

One market that has exploded though is selling music to film and TV and many songwriters who do not want to write formulaic songs, find revenue there.

But the reality is we are talking a pretty minuscule number compared to the competitive pool

[Murphy Slaw]

No. I don't think there's much money left in it if you are just a writer and don't perform and look like a 19 year old model.

There will always be exceptions, but I agree with Daniel Grenier and Lynn Miles. The value has been removed. I performed and gigged all over the Country for many decades and had some success, but I have still put much of my original material on youTube and Soundcloud simply for it to be heard..... For free. I just got too old to be bouncing around the Country playing for peanuts, but the writer in me knows it must be heard.

Should I take them down? Refuse to "give them away". In which case only a handful of people would ever hear them now. It's a tough question.

When Owen and I did the Dummitt/Malone project with cdbaby, THEY put the whole cd on youTube for free listening, and yet THEY have an interest in selling it.

It's a strange new World...

[k_russell]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I know of a couple of songwriters who make their living in it these days. Both went to Nashville and worked their way into songwriting circles. The way it works for them is collaboration. They get a call and are asked to join a song or album project. They are paid a fee to sit down with the artist and develop the artists ideas for them. There may be more than one collaborator in the group. On the back side of the project, any song they are involved with, they will also share credit and royalties.

On the higher-profile projects there are sometimes artists who want all the credit. They want to appear to be singer-songwriters so they will do the deal as a buy-out, receiving a lump sum of money for a song and not credit and that is that.

Bob

Thanks Bob. I found an article on the topic

https://www.whiskeyriff.com/2020/02/...EXZ4ZVg7zx76SU

[RedJoker]

I keep thinking that maybe the music biz in the mid 1900's is actually the anomaly, not the current day. 200 years ago, it would be a rare site indeed for a person to make a living writing and playing music. Maybe we're just going back to the state that music has been throughout history.

I dunno, I'll just keep writing and playing...

[MikeBmusic]

As already said, unless one is performing (and have the looks/appeal of a 20s-something), the only way a songwriter can make a living is in partnership with a NAME artist or through a company/agency (which most likely is cranking out formula songs to be 'hits').
The songwriters I know are eking out a living only by performing. And a massive amount of non-music work - social media, publicizing, seeking out gigs - necessary to sustain it.
The reliance on 'superfans' (that's marketspeak now) to buy CDs and other merch isn't sustainable - at best it can create a decent *extra* income, but also comes with a start-up cost.
Yes, CDBaby puts your music on their youtube channel, further diluting the income stream the artist might see from other places - but not really, as any potential listeners who find songs on youtube (through the right column suggestions or general search terms) most likely aren't using those other streaming services regularly.
Does a $5 or $10 cover charge encourage people to realize music is 'worth paying for', yes and no - the people who willingly and regularly do pay cover charges already know the value. Other people will take the cheaper alternative and go someplace with no cover charge.

[BallisticSquid]

The whole devaluation of music is frankly depressing. From my experience, it's a commodity rendered mostly to the background. Venues pay less and less for bands and book them far less frequently. Audiences are more interested in their phones and posting on social media. As much as I'd like to say I make music for myself, it's not entirely true. So when I go to the effort to create it through recording or performance and it's met with indifference, I wonder why I bother.

Regarding CD Baby and youtube...the music is put out there for free for the listener but you should collect money on the streams. I just dipped my toe into this whole thing so my situation may not reflect the norm, but the place I was able to get my music played the most was on YouTube...not Spotify, Apple Music, or Bandcamp.

Where I see folks making money is through YouTube. Look up Mary Spender. She created a social media presence with content about making music and through that has developed a fan base. She's been quite successful, but it took her years of dedicated effort to get it off the ground. She's quite talented and certainly deserves the success she has.

[PorkPieGuy]

To the OP,

I just don't see how any songwriter can make it today solely on songwriting for a couple of reasons (I'm not taking into account performing concerts or touring.):

Saturation - There are just way too many out there. Some are pretty darn good, and they are giving away their music for free.

Record Companies - If they can't make money from it, they want no part of it...no matter how deep or meaningful a song is.

In my mind, I think the best that many can hope for is to simply supplement income with songwriting (if they're lucky), and to carry on with a day job...just like the rest of us.

[Mbroady]

Great discussion and look forward to following it. I know several musicians / performers that make a decent living with original material. The key for them is they are not just songwriters. They are experienced musicians who have worked not just on songwriting but also on playing their instruments in a way that is compelling, in perfecting their voice, perfecting their recording skills and perfecting their act. It's it's not just about writing a great song, it's about the Gestalt of it. I will also add that these folks are all around great people with a generosity of spirit , heart, and soul. IMHO , this is an important contributing factor to their success

[catdaddy]

I've been writing songs for more than 50 years. Although I've always done it part-time and mostly for my own enjoyment, I've always been serious about learning the craft and developing my songwriting skills. Along the way I've been fortunate to have gotten to know, learn from and work with some very successful pro songwriters. All of them are performers. Most of them are teachers. And all of them have had enough success during an earlier musical era to have significant amounts of "mailbox money" coming in via songwriting royalties. They all admit to being in the right place at the right time in the Music Industry.

Trying to start a career in the music industry today as a songwriter who doesn't also perform is probably close to impossible. KevWind's mention of TV and film industries offering good opportunities is right-on from my experience. The most monetary success (modest though it was) I've ever had as a songwriter was on a film deal. Currently I have a song being used in an audio book format that is generating royalties. In both of these cases it was of no consequence that I was not a "known" performer. So, it's possible to make some money from just songwriting today, but I'm not sure that anyone is going to get rich doing just that within the Music Industry unless they're already well connected and have had some earlier success to draw upon. The best bets are in industries such as Film, TV and Audio Books where the opportunities aren't just a mirage from the past.