Moving to an Archtop

[RobertForman]

my favorite old archtops are the Epiphones, I have owned a vintage (walnut) Spartan, and a Triumph Regent. both of these were (relatively) reasonably priced instrument that were just tremendous. I also had a round holed Gibson L-4 and it remains among the best guitars I have ever played or heard. it too was not expensive. a good place to look for archtops is archtop.com

needless to say archtops may, on the surface, seem to have a less complex timbre than flattops. there is that aspect of an archtop that is built for cutting and projecting and the best archtops do that. but they also impart a complex almost, 3-D sound quality owning mostly to the carved back and top, so on an archtop you get guitar but you also get mandolin and even cello like tones. the challenge is to coax those tones, and archtops can be very demanding of a player, not as easy or forgiving as a flattop.

[JCave]

Originally Posted by pszy22

Must be something going around. I also just recently purchased a Godin 5th Ave. Only had it for a few days, I find the more I play it, the more I come to appreciate the sound it is capable of producing.

I do very much like the feel of the guitar as well.

Change that bridge to rosewood and you'll like the guitar even more.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by RobertForman

...Needless to say archtops may, on the surface, seem to have a less complex timbre than flattops. There is that aspect of an archtop that is built for cutting and projecting and the best archtops do that, but they also impart a complex, almost 3-D sound quality owing mostly to the carved back and top, so on an archtop you get guitar but you also get mandolin and even cello like tones. The challenge is to coax those tones, and archtops can be very demanding of a player, not as easy or forgiving as a flattop.

...and most players who didn't begin learning on an archtop (which includes just about anyone born after Sputnik I) really don't get it (clearly, you do ); there's a lot of tone to be had but, just as an experienced keyboard player will approach a concert grand piano and a harpsichord differently, there's a characteristically "archtop" technique that reveals the best qualities in these instruments - as the old-time players used to say, "coaxing the velvet out." IME there's not only a need to re-evaluate your expectations but also the physiology involved: think "stroke" rather than "strum," "glide" rather than "pick" (much as a violinist uses a bow to produce a "singing" tone, and involving similar muscular responses), and try to "feel the tone" in your left-hand fingers as you play; frankly, I learned more about archtop tone production and technique watching Itzhak Perlman than most of the jazzers I've seen (I started on archtop in 1962 and studied with Jack Wilkins as a kid, so I don't say this lightly). You also nail it when you say demanding and unforgiving - you don't have the depth and sustain of a flattop (archtops develop their tone in front of the top rather than inside the body - one of the reasons for their tremendous cutting power), so both right- and left-hand technique have to be dead-on if you expect to obtain that three-dimensional tone you describe; when I was teaching actively about ten years ago, my favorite trick would be to hand my (since-sold) '47 L-7 to one of my budding metalheads and let him/her try to play their latest licks - very revealing to say the least, and an instant ego-deflator if there ever was one. Clearly archtops are not for everybody - you can't just expect to pick one up, whack away, and achieve instant results - but for anyone willing to put in the time to master the technique(s) these instruments demand, there's far more long-term gratification...

[slewis]

So what types of strings might I look at to gt the most response and optimal tone/volume out of my Godin 5th Avenue? I clearly have some technique work to do, but id also like to know that I'm on the right track with my string selection. I think I'm still using the factory strings on mine...

[RobertForman]

nice post Steve, good insight. Thank you.

and slewis, I like phosphor bronze 13s on my archtop. none of those nickel wound or unwound or whatever. in other words, regular steel string acoustic guitar strings, but mediums instead of light gauge.

I sometimes play my archtop fingerstyle, but when using a pick I prefer a very very stiff one.

[iim7V7IM7]

I play both acoustically and plugged in so I use Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Bebop .013-.056. They also make a set for George Benson which is similar but uses a wound G string (which I like).

[charles Tauber]

Here's what mine sounds like, as played by Michael Maguire:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmaguire

[Spook]

I'm a little concerned that fellow forumites unfamiliar with archtops will get the impression that esoteric techniques are required to play one. In my limited experience, and coming from flat tops with a pick and fingers, an archtop offers a broader dynamic range and more tonal possibilities even before you master them. As your right hand articulation grows, you get rewarded with a range of good tones. But mine have sounded good to me from the start. It's hard to get a bad or harsh sound out of my 18" with acoustic strings. At least until I'm so loud that the dog is staring at me and the wife comes in to see what's going on.

Sean - I use regular phosphor bronze .013's on acoustic only archtops and Thomastik Infield BeBops (yea, they're friggin expensive) on those with a pickup. You're not moving as much air on your Godin so .012's may be fine.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Spook

I'm a little concerned that fellow forumites unfamiliar with archtops will get the impression that esoteric techniques are required to play one. In my limited experience, and coming from flat tops with a pick and fingers, an archtop offers a broader dynamic range and more tonal possibilities even before you master them. As your right hand articulation grows, you get rewarded with a range of good tones...I use regular phosphor bronze .013's on acoustic only archtops and Thomastik Infield BeBops (yea, they're friggin expensive) on those with a pickup. You're not moving as much air on your Godin so .012's may be fine.

I agree completely - esoteric techniques aren't required to get started, as long as you've got a fundamentally clean technique to begin with; by the same token, you've also noticed the increased breadth of available tonal color as you become more familiar with the demands of the instrument - and therein lies my point. As with any other guitar, everyone and his Uncle Louie can learn to get some kind of sound, but to get that thick, rich, creamy, "tone you can eat with a spoon" that for most long-time players represents the Holy Grail/raison d'etre for archtops in the first place - that's going to take some concentrated listening and focused practice; the bottom line is that by their very nature archtop guitars are finicky beasts, that play you as much as you play them - a recent Ibanez ad refers to them as "guitar royalty," and not without good reason. Like a finely-tuned race car, they'll tell you what they need in order to get the best out of them - if you pay attention (what I said about "feeling the note") - and while I might be able to wrestle a Top Fueler down the track just fast enough to require a change of undies, given my bracket-racing experience and with some practice runs, I won't be winning an NHRA National event any time soon; similarly, although most players will be able to get a decent tone or two out of an archtop even from the get-go, to really master one is quite a different story...

As far as the Godin 5th Avenue is concerned I've got one, so I'll speak from my own experience. TMK they come from the factory set up with .012's which, to my ears (and given the 24-7/8" scale), are OK for Gypsy jazz or New Age fingerstyle but little else - you need to get the top working in order to get some real tone and volume (and there's plenty in there); I'll ditto Spook here on the .013's for all-around acoustic use - they're heavy enough to drive the top and light enough for fingerstyle. FWIW, I've got a 1930's soloist setup on mine (.014's and low action) which gives more bass for chord work (always a consideration with a 16" body) and more cut for single-string leads; I wouldn't recommend this if you're not an experienced archtop player, though - even with low action you're going to need to apply more finger pressure than you're probably used to...

[pszy22]

Originally Posted by JCave

Change that bridge to rosewood and you'll like the guitar even more.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I actually bought it used and it came with a rosewood bridge already installed.

[slewis]

Steve, Robert and others, thanks very much. Great insight and info here!

[guildmann]

i love the looks of your Collings Archtop Robert... bet it sounds nice.

i also played and still play my flat tops but i'm playing a lot of Jazz in the past 10 years. i've aquired 2 solid wood archtops made by Gary Stroup ( 16" & 18") with benedetto pickups, i also have a Guild X-500, Guild X-50, Guild T-100, & Gibson ES-330. I gig Mostly with the Stroup guitars. love that woody sound.

i must say though most of my practicing is on my Flat Tops. Guild F-30, Martin Om-21, Martin D-35, Taylor 412, & Tacoma Chief.

you can never have enough guitars !!

Rob

[Mr Bill]

Spook - great thread! If I ever need someone to write a bio of my music career, I want it to be you, man! Love your writing style.

I had an old (in his 80s) friend give me a Harmony archtop that sat in the closet for 20 or so years. It's my 'beater' guitar, but the thing is in great shape. It's a lot of fun to play - makes me want to play torch songs from the '30s and 40s. It doesn't sound like my Martin D-28, but it's got it's own personality.

[fazool]

I love the aesthetics of an archtop. I don't play any jazz and always thought archtops weren't for me.

But I remain intrigued.

I tried a used Godin 5th ave in GC once. The strongs were spent (and rusty) but it had a very particular sound. I was really drawn to playing it.

One of these days I'm going to start specifically playing them in stores.

[RobertForman]

Hi Guildman, thanks for the compliment. I think I posted a link to a little iPhone clip that my wife and I made, so check it out when you have the time, it's just a two minute folk song. I play some jazz and swing stuff, but am mostly drawn to old timey music and the archtop works just fine for that. I also dabble in pop and acoustic based rock, really I don't change up my repertoire for playing the archtop, I would not characterize what I do as jazz though I play some jazz. would love to hear your music too, so post a link if you can.