What if the Beatles never existed?

[Staredge]

Originally Posted by Inyo

Original poster provides the following threadline: "What if the Beatles never existed?"

Paul would have never died in the 1960s.

But apparently a whole bunch of people missed that it's not a question, it's a lead in to a trailer for s movie that's coming out with that premise.

[FrankHudson]

From the look of the trailer I'm pre-sold. I like rom-coms, and the twist seems like it could be a valid plot.


A couple of decades ago I wrote my own Beatles "alternate history" twist piece. In mine the negotiations for the first American visit had a just slightly different speed and they landed in NYC not weeks after the John Kennedy assassination*, but the day of it. Therefore no crowds at the airport, no Sullivan show, no press coverage of the this novelty act from the UK--the US is in mourning. The handful of gigs that were booked went on, but audience response was mixed.

The result? The Beatles still were huge in the UK. but only one of many acts in the "British Invasion." They break up in 1966 after releasing a farewell single "We Can Work it Out." I had great fun imagining alternate paths their careers would have taken.

Any serious analysis of "what if" I think would conclude that the "Rock" explosion of the middle and later Sixties was primed to happen. While the Beatles but their distinct mark on things via huge talent, luck, and popularity, the forces involved with diverse and not dependent on one thing. Among those things:

Increasing cultural interaction between Afro-American musicians and white musicians. This in itself is huge, and if you'd prefer to point to one thing, that's it.

The "Folk Revival" which occurred in the UK and the US in the Fifties. Kids could pick up a guitar and learn three chords and perform (Just like the punk/indie scene and hip hop in the later 20th Century, this low barrier to entry was important). And what would they perform? Well some of the songs would be from Afro-American (or other ethnic) tradition, and some of them would be songs of cultural criticism/comment as the folk revival on both sides of the Atlantic had a left-wing and bohemian connection. Remember, the Beatles were first a skiffle band, and if you look at the careers of many of the US "Rock" acts (as more "serious" rock'n'roll started to be called in the middle Sixties) and you'll find ex-folkies. Honorable mention in the UK to the "Trad Jazz" revival which had a blues sideline. I've often wondered, is this why many UK rock bands had better drummers than early US rock bands?


The "Baby Boom" demographic bulge.


All of these things are independent of the Beatles. They're also probably independent of Bob Dylan, Motown and other "soul music" labels, Buddy Holly living or dying, or the Rolling Stones etc.


*I wanted my story to make a sly comment on the theory that the Beatles benefited from an U.S. that was looking to take it's mind of the trauma of the JFK assassination. In my story, the Dave Clark 5 land in Feb 64 and get the big U.S. break on Sullivan. Dave Clark meets Yoko Ono at the art gallery. Paul McCartney wears out his welcome in multiple progressive rock bands after the Beatles break up. John Lennon goes into acting. George Harrison sees a banjo on a movie set and ends up studying with Earl Scruggs. All the details change, but the overall times have the same thrust.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

From the look of the trailer I'm pre-sold. I like rom-coms, and the twist seems like it could be a valid plot.


A couple of decades ago I wrote my own Beatles "alternate history" twist piece. In mine the negotiations for the first American visit had a just slightly different speed and they landed in NYC not weeks after the John Kennedy assassination*, but the day of it. Therefore no crowds at the airport, no Sullivan show, no press coverage of the this novelty act from the UK--the US is in mourning. The handful of gigs that were booked went on, but audience response was mixed.

The result? The Beatles still were huge in the UK. but only one of many acts in the "British Invasion." They break up in 1966 after releasing a farewell single "We Can Work it Out." I had great fun imagining alternate paths their careers would have taken.

Any serious analysis of "what if" I think would conclude that the "Rock" explosion of the middle and later Sixties was primed to happen. While the Beatles but their distinct mark on things via huge talent, luck, and popularity, the forces involved with diverse and not dependent on one thing. Among those things:

Increasing cultural interaction between Afro-American musicians and white musicians. This in itself is huge, and if you'd prefer to point to one thing, that's it.

The "Folk Revival" which occurred in the UK and the US in the Fifties. Kids could pick up a guitar and learn three chords and perform (Just like the punk/indie scene and hip hop in the later 20th Century, this low barrier to entry was important). And what would they perform? Well some of the songs would be from Afro-American (or other ethnic) tradition, and some of them would be songs of cultural criticism/comment as the folk revival on both sides of the Atlantic had a left-wing and bohemian connection. Remember, the Beatles were first a skiffle band, and if you look at the careers of many of the US "Rock" acts (as more "serious" rock'n'roll started to be called in the middle Sixties) and you'll find ex-folkies. Honorable mention in the UK to the "Trad Jazz" revival which had a blues sideline. I've often wondered, is this why many UK rock bands had better drummers than early US rock bands?


The "Baby Boom" demographic bulge.


All of these things are independent of the Beatles. They're also probably independent of Bob Dylan, Motown and other "soul music" labels, Buddy Holly living or dying, or the Rolling Stones etc.


*I wanted my story to make a sly comment on the theory that the Beatles benefited from an U.S. that was looking to take it's mind of the trauma of the JFK assassination. In my story, the Dave Clark 5 land in Feb 64 and get the big U.S. break on Sullivan. Dave Clark meets Yoko Ono at the art gallery. Paul McCartney wears out his welcome in multiple progressive rock bands after the Beatles break up. John Lennon goes into acting. George Harrison sees a banjo on a movie set and ends up studying with Earl Scruggs. All the details change, but the overall times have the same thrust.

Interesting stuff, Frank, your discussion reminds me of the novel ‘The Garden of Forking Paths’ by Jorge Louis Borges, where an infinitely variable outcome of chance events opens up a multitude of possibilities of what could have happened.

Knowledge of broad general trends in music and culture opens the mind to the possibilities and I think gives one a deeper understanding of who and where we are in history.

On the other hand us humans have a tendency to fixate on personalities and often miss out on the spirit of inspiration that can result in the rise to fame of a musician based on chance, luck, fortune, and hopefully lots of hard work.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by RP

Probably true, but let's not forget the huge presence held at the time by the Dave Clark Five....

That’s pretty well exactly what my brother in law would say, but his trophy wife (my late sister) would scoff: they lacked the heart-throb good looks. Even way out on the frontiers of civilization, she would scream for the Beatles listening on the radio. Beatlemania roamed far and wide by 1965.

[PorkPieGuy]

If the Beatles never existed, maybe I could afford a USA Ludwig drum set.

Ringo sold more drums for Ludwig than any other drummer out there.

[slooky]

Originally Posted by Inyo

Original poster provides the following threadline: "What if the Beatles never existed?"

Paul would have never died in the 1960s.

Lol too funny

[slooky]

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

If the Beatles never existed, maybe I could afford a USA Ludwig drum set.

Ringo sold more drums for Ludwig than any other drummer out there.

I would say thats true. I wonder how guitars sales went after the Beatles played on Ed Sullivan. I'm sure they increased.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by slooky

...I wonder how guitars sales went after the Beatles played on Ed Sullivan. I'm sure they increased.

Rickenbacker was virtually unknown outside California, except for a few remaining lap-steel players - by mid-1965 they had a two-year order backlog - and IME if you're a vintage Gretsch fan most of the models you're going to see date from late '63 through late '66...

One very interesting tidbit of apocryphal lore was that the rare Gretsch "cats'-eye" 6117 single-cut hollowbody, produced between mid-1964 and early 1967, was a response to the band's prominent use of Rick instruments in the "Beatlemania" period. Built on the ultra-thin Clipper platform rather than the 2-1/2" Anniversary body (the 6117 designation actually refers to a sunburst Double Annie - I own one), it featured dual single-coil Hi-lo'Trons and a four-knob/single-switch wiring scheme - which, along with the cats'-eye soundholes borrowed from the '40s Synchromatic archtops and Jet-style opaque red and black finishes (not available on any other Gretsch hollowbody), made it nearly indistinguishable from the almost-nonexistent Rick 360F full-size hollowbody (FYI the recently-discontinued Electromatic 5620T-CB is a virtual dead-ringer); rumor was that, much like the 360-12 and white-guard 325 Rick delivered to the Beatles during their first US tour (Paul would not take delivery of his 4001 bass until mid-'65, where it would appear for the first time on Rubber Soul), Gretsch was going to present one of each color to the boys (red for George, black for John) in the hopes of scoring an endorsement - problem being that their music was advancing so rapidly that they were essentially obsolete for their intended use by the time the next opportunity presented itself (George and John would both adopt Epiphone Casinos as their main stage instruments by late '65, and while John did use a '63 double-cut 6120 for the "Paperback Writer" sessions the Gretsch brand would no longer grace the Beatles' live performances). Could have been interesting had they scored the deal - I'm thinking a proto-version of the (also discontinued) 5622T-CB 3-PU double-cut of fifty years later would have found its way into the hands of one or both Beatle guitarists...

[DenverSteve]

Originally Posted by Jaden

.... I’ve been looking for the triple vinyl All Things Must Pass/ Harrison so I’m in deep...

Available on Amazon.

[slooky]

thank you Steve DeRosa!

[220volt]

In the mid 90's I knew a guy from Iraq who had no idea who the Beatles were. He never heard of a single song or one name mentioned. So he never knew they existed until I mentioned that to him, despite living in the US for a few years already.
He heard of Maddona though.

[Glennwillow]

It does seem like it would be an interesting movie.

Although in real life, I doubt that if anyone else tried to make music with the Beatles' music that it would get any attention. The Beatles almost went nowhere. They were extremely lucky that things fell into place.

Also, the combination of the voices of Paul McCartney and John Lennon, at least in my mind, is what created a lot of the early magic, McCartney's high harmonies in particular. So one guy singing unknown Beatles music, I think, would go nowhere in this current musical climate.

Still, the movie sounds like it would be fun. I'll look forward to watching it when it comes out.

- Glenn

[Slothead56]

Originally Posted by muscmp

and, what if buddy holly had not died?

play music!

Don McLean would be working as a Walmart greeter.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Slothead56

Don McLean would be working as a Walmart greeter.

...

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Staredge

But apparently a whole bunch of people missed that it's not a question, it's a lead in to a trailer for s movie that's coming out with that premise.

No, they didn't. Manipulation of OP's is a tradition around these parts.