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  #16  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:57 PM
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murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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I have to say that I don't understand Bruce's comment either.

Quote:
It is a much better idea to adjust height of the saddle as a whole
The object of the exercise is (or should be ) to end up with the desired 12th fret string height for each individual string.

It may be possible ( and would certainly be quicker) to do that by sanding/filing the base of the saddle, but that is not a procedure that any tech of my acquaintance would adopt ...(and I am not talking about builders, I am talking about guys who do many hundreds of setups a year) ... for them, filing from the top is preferred every time.

Last edited by murrmac123; 03-20-2019 at 07:03 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-20-2019, 07:17 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
For all intent purposes it is 2:1+ a tad. What you have not factored in is the compensation which varies from player to player, based on each player’s unique string attack. A compensation of .100” is only a starting point and not set in stone. You are assuming that the scale length is 2X the nut to the 12th fret distance, which it’s not. It’s 2X the nut to 12th fret PLUS ~.100” which is only measured at the little “e” string.

For example, a “scale length” of 25.5” with a compensation of .1” would actually measure 25.6” from the nut to the center of the saddle at the little e. In reality it’s still called a 25.5” scale length.

I agree with Bruce that it is more common to remove material from the bottom of the saddle. It will save you time because once the top of the saddle is accurately compensated then you only have to remove material from the saddle’s bottom to set the action at the 12th. Otherwise removing material from the top, you may be repeating unnecessary steps?
Such great input, Thank all of you so much!
I am adjusting Individual strings saddle height from the top, because exact curvature and height, was not yet determined. I am starting with a flat blank.
As an example if my B string is 20 thousands taller than my High E...I can not adjust from the bottom without lowering the High E as well...as the saddle's correct curvature is not correct.
I suppose what I need is a radius gauge to transfer onto my blank saddle to begin with.
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  #18  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:55 PM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Not a helpful comment.

My interpretation of the earlier comment of "Otherwise a skilled player will have an unnecessarily hard time managing dynamics as they go from string to string." is that a ruler laid across the six strings should touch each string at the same time (ruler flat). Of course that would not be the case with a radiused saddle.
The line perpendicular to the strings (ie: the top of the saddle) could be a straight line or a a curved line (I didn't specify). On most of my SS guitars it is a curved line with a 15" radius. That is slightly tighter than the 16" radius of the fingerboard. Once that line is established it is "right", and any change made by a technician to an individual string's saddle height is "wrong". The motivation for this line of reasoning (my comment) comes from post #1 in this thread.

If you think I am wrong, you don't understand what I'm saying, not that there aren't other ways to skin the cat. Murrmac123 does not know me and if he did, he would not be able to make his blanket statement since I certainly do adjust saddle height from the bottom, assuming the top is done right. Unless it is glued in, of course.
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  #19  
Old 03-20-2019, 09:47 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
Murrmac123 does not know me and if he did, he would not be able to make his blanket statement since I certainly do adjust saddle height from the bottom, assuming the top is done right. Unless it is glued in, of course.
Only way I do it as well, I establish the desired top profile and then all subsequent height adjustments are done vee sanding the bottom.

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  #20  
Old 03-20-2019, 09:51 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Such great input, Thank all of you so much!
I sent you a PM, it has a link with me showing step by step how to turn a flat piece of bone into a saddle, this is not the definitive way, my way

Steve
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  #21  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
The line perpendicular to the strings (ie: the top of the saddle) could be a straight line or a a curved line (I didn't specify). On most of my SS guitars it is a curved line with a 15" radius. That is slightly tighter than the 16" radius of the fingerboard. Once that line is established it is "right", and any change made by a technician to an individual string's saddle height is "wrong". The motivation for this line of reasoning (my comment) comes from post #1 in this thread.

If you think I am wrong, you don't understand what I'm saying, not that there aren't other ways to skin the cat. Murrmac123 does not know me and if he did, he would not be able to make his blanket statement since I certainly do adjust saddle height from the bottom, assuming the top is done right. Unless it is glued in, of course.
Did not say I disagreed with your earlier post, just that it was not very clear. This post was clearer.
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  #22  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:20 PM
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murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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When it comes to fine tuning the action, I don't give a tinker's cuss what the saddle "radius" is. And just FTR, the fretboard "radius" at the 12th fret on a guitar with a compound radiused fretboard is different from the radius at the saddle.

What matters is to get the action at the 12th fret consistent with what the customer wants... this normally involves filing the saddle to obtain an overall decrement of .020" ... .090" at the E string to .070" at the e string. Some customers like a steeper decrement .,. like 090 " to .060" ... or even steeper.

Either way, there is no way to achieve an accurate setting by filing the saddle from the bottom.
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  #23  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:28 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Those of us that do it for a living, you know 8hrs a day 5-6 days a week, 48 weeks a year, and sometimes with decades of experience, know full well, lowering an action height vee sanding the base of the saddle is an incredibly accurate method.

No right or wrong way exists in lutherie, it is the end result that counts.

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Last edited by mirwa; 03-22-2019 at 07:41 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:50 AM
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Let's not forget what we are really interested in are the individual string lines from the nut to the saddle. It doesn't matter if the variation in saddle height is cut into the top of the saddle and then action height is adjusted from the bottom, or the action height and variation for each string are all taken from the top. If we do them correctly, both methods give the same results.

Which end of an egg do you guys open?
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  #25  
Old 03-24-2019, 03:18 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Thanks everyone! The 2 to 1 ratio worked out great.
Just did another guitar today..and I only had to loosen the strings 2 times, instead of six times like last time.
Saves lots of time and frustration knowing the exact ratio!
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  #26  
Old 03-25-2019, 08:36 AM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Thanks everyone! The 2 to 1 ratio worked out great.
Of track a bit, as per your signature, a knife I made for my daughter, she is a chef by trade, so stainless blade, making knives and tools is therapeudic IMO

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Last edited by mirwa; 03-25-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-25-2019, 11:40 AM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Beautiful Work mirwa !
Making things and being in control is the key. Weather you make knives, woodworking, or Guitar set ups. Making- adjusting things to our own personal standards is FREEDOM.
If I had a do over in life, It would to have been to become a custom Guitar maker. I have done lots of things in my life. A traditional archer, Longbow and wood arrows, since 1965(making my own wood arrows, leather quivers & strings. A Backpacker, backpack hunting, Canoer in Canada, a Professional Photographer for the music industry, Woodworker making products, A custom Knife maker and more.
But I can not imagine anything coming close to joys of making beautiful acoustic guitars. My hats off to all of the custom Luthiers! I have had a world of fun just playing around with Different Saddle materials and bridge pins. Truth be told, I think I may have more fun discovering the mysteries of the Different tops, back and sides, saddle materials, string choices, bridge pins, than actual playing. I love learning and discovering. When I discover a new material that gets me that special sound, I play better.
I have been retired for nearly three years now. I have kept my Website up for giggles. However, I am ending it with just a couple of weeks left. If you like looking a beautiful rare woods you might enjoy the slow moving slide show on each of the pages.
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