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  #16  
Old 02-09-2019, 12:46 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
You should visit with an orthopedic hand doctor. If it’s really an entrapment, it didn’t start with you playing a dreadnaught, it was probably there to begin with. It is likely that whatever changed in your posture when you switched guitars irritated the nerve and caused inflammation.

I’ll tell you what I’m 90% sure your doctor would tell you: rest, ice, stretching. Possibly physical therapy if the pain persists.

Yes, this is exactly right! It's from the larger body guitar and sitting low,too relaxed, playing for an hour. The Dreadnought is brand new. I had just come home from the hospital for a different surgery. I was soo happy to be home and to get to play my brand new guitar.

Next day I felt a slight pinch-pain. So, you're right. I irritated the U. nerve from the larger guitar size. I usually play only OM sizes,,,larrivee and Maton.



But, I had the nerve test done. Everything was NORMAL. Actually it's my rt. arm that's injured, but my rt arm came out better than the lft arm in the test.

So, does that sound positive at all? Not that bad? All these stories are scaring me. I've already had tendonitis and carpal tunnel in both arms which took me out for a year.



What I'm hearing here is that most are saying that I SHOULDN'T try playing through the injury...although right now the pain is very slight.

It is not very painful and I only feel it on certain movments, action..ex. brushing teeth, pressing fingers together. I don't feel it most of the day.
I don't feel it when I play guitar.

It improved by doing flossing excercises,,it just won't go away entirely either.

Sorry to hear soo many have really went through it with this stuff.

Last edited by austro1; 02-10-2019 at 12:12 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2019, 12:54 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Originally Posted by kkrell View Post
You could try these exercises for ulnar nerve flossing:
Hey Thanks! This is the video and excericises I use. They really have helped.

This gives me hope because I feel almost nothing in the elbow after I do these excercises.
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2019, 01:03 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Thanks everybody for the replies and help.

I'll look into all these tips. Very sobering what many have had to go through.


BTW, at the initial onset I did take a few weeks off...but the pinch in the Cubital tunnel came back as soon as I started playing again. Or I think it never really left in the first place.

But like said, the pain is soo slight that I only feel it by certain movements and it is by no means an excruciating pain.
I do feel a little stiffness and pinch in the morning when I first wake up. AS soon as I get up though the slight stiffness is gone.

I know with Tendonitis /osis that rest doesn't always bring results. Sometimes it comes back anyways when you start up again. It's a combination of reducing certain activities plus excercises, ice ,etc.

I'm not sure if Ulnar injuries work the same way.

Last edited by austro1; 02-10-2019 at 12:10 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2019, 01:40 PM
dhalbert dhalbert is offline
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I've had cubital tunnel syndrome, which is another name for more or less the same thing. There are several threads about it on the AGF you can search for. I've had it mostly on the left arm, with tingling initially and permanent mild numbness on the pinkie finger. No pain.

I bought a simple soft velcro-attached elbow brace that kept me from folding my arm up while sleeping, and I kept the pressure off the "funny bone" region while sitting at a desk and while driving (keeping my arm off the armrest). It got somewhat better. I did have PT but it helped only marginally.
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  #20  
Old 02-10-2019, 11:31 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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So, it's time for an update.

I've tried the last few days to continue playing through this.

I've averaged playing around 30-40 minutes a night.

Besides that I've tried to keep my elbow straight at night and I've done a lot of stretching and done the gliding excercises daily. I play mostly standing and have really reduced my playing time.

I've noticed though that the pain has slightly increased, especially in the morning when first awakening. It hasn't increased a lot but I sence that it's slowly getting worse day by day.

It's worst in the morning.... stiffness and pain. It gets better though once I'm up and moving.

The thing that's confusing is that I don't really feel any pain when I play guitar.

The only good news;...

1. I still don't experience any numbness or tingling in my hand.

2. The Nerve conduction test showed that my arm was normal. No compression or damage found.


But I've had two things that inditcate that it's not getting any better.

1. I had to help carry a couch. I felt acute pain a few times doing that.
2. I was in a playground with my nieces and they asked me to push them on a swing type thing. Couldn't really do it without pain.

These kind of things tell me that I'm asking for trouble in the future.

The Cubital Syndrome is in my right arm. Since I'm rt. handed this is starting to really annoy me.

I think therefore I've decided to stop playing for a month or so and see if it goes away.

I think I'd rather risk this Gig in April than risk a chronic injury that might never go away and that starts to effect my everyday work and activities let alone guitar playing.

If I take a break that will put me within 2 weeks or so before this important Gig! I don't know then if I'll have enough time to prepare 30-40 Fingerstlye tunes.

This is real dissapointing!

What do you guys think? Do you think it's a better decision in the long run to take a break now?

This started right before Christmas. Is it anyways chronic at this stage of the game?

Is this crap going to continue regardless if I take a break or continue playing through it and therefore....just do the Gig, especially since I seem to feel no pain while playing? Confusing stuff.

Last edited by austro1; 02-10-2019 at 11:58 PM.
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  #21  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:55 AM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Question: If you get a negative on the Nerve Conduction test does that mean that it can't be Ulnar entrapment or Cupital Syndrome?

I went to another Dr to get a second opinion and they told me that I don't have Cupital Syndrome but that I have Golf elbow.

I'm confused now. Two doctors giving me two different diagnoses.

This second Dr. told me that it CAN'T be Cupital Syndrome if everything was found normal on the Nerve Conduction test.

Is that right?

Anyways, I decided to take a month off of playing to see if I can stop it from becoming chronic if possible.

It would help to have know what it is so that I can't can target myself how work on it.
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2019, 09:01 AM
jpd jpd is offline
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Originally Posted by byudzai View Post
My piano teacher had it so bad she needed the surgery where they move the nerve to the other side of the bone. Took her a year or more to recover but she just played a full concert. So it's possible!
Family friend just had this surgery last month. It was not fully successful. Beware with the claims from surgery!
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:30 AM
Dog Shape Cloud Dog Shape Cloud is offline
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Yeah, I've had this and still have to be careful.

Did not do the surgery, went with alternative treatments, postural correction both with and without the guitar (classical position feels natural now), modifying various habits, and regular PT exercises/stretches. I'm generally good to play a few hours a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austro1 View Post

1. I had to help carry a couch. I felt acute pain a few times doing that.
Bad idea to start, and worse to continue after the first acute pain.

Adding because I haven't seen it mentioned: IFF you have a good one nearby (you can often tell if you look into them), try seeing an acupuncturist (some people will tell you it's snake oil; I won't argue about it).
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  #24  
Old 02-23-2019, 01:42 AM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Shape Cloud View Post
Yeah, I've had this and still have to be careful.

Did not do the surgery, went with alternative treatments, postural correction both with and without the guitar (classical position feels natural now), modifying various habits, and regular PT exercises/stretches. I'm generally good to play a few hours a day.



Bad idea to start, and worse to continue after the first acute pain.

Adding because I haven't seen it mentioned: IFF you have a good one nearby (you can often tell if you look into them), try seeing an acupuncturist (some people will tell you it's snake oil; I won't argue about it).
Yes, you're right, bad idea. It's hard though, because it's my rt hand and still have to do work.

Did you have the Nerve Conduction test done? Like I said, I did and everything came out normal. So it's hard somehow for the doctors to give me a diagnosis. I still don't really know if it's Ulnar nerve or Golfer's elbow and without knowing it's kind of hard to know which direction to treat it..
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  #25  
Old 02-23-2019, 06:53 AM
dhalbert dhalbert is offline
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@austro1 - I did a little websearching and came up with stuff like this: https://depts.washington.edu/neurolo...uropathies.pdf, which says the original use of "cubital tunnel syndrome" was very specific, and its use has widened (unfortunate, according to the authors). That same paper says the nerve conduction tests need to be done carefully to give a true picture.

"Golfer's elbow" (a casual term: the technical term is medial epicondylitis) is a tendon problem. But it seems like the treatment (rest, braces, icing) would be similar.

Given the two opinions, maybe you should get the doctors to consult with each other, since it's pretty hard for a layperson to come to a conclusion when experts disagree. And maybe they are not really disagreeing: they see a cluster of symptoms and assign a name, and their naming habits may not be the same.
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  #26  
Old 02-23-2019, 07:54 AM
Dog Shape Cloud Dog Shape Cloud is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austro1 View Post
Did you have the Nerve Conduction test done? Like I said, I did and everything came out normal. So it's hard somehow for the doctors to give me a diagnosis. I still don't really know if it's Ulnar nerve or Golfer's elbow and without knowing it's kind of hard to know which direction to treat it..
Had a couple of tests at the hospital, don't quite recall which, but it was primarily an ulnar issue (some median nerve trouble too, but not as bad).

Went to the doctor because I was experiencing the characteristic numbness in my last two fingers, a few years back. Pretty scary! The PT assigned to me was familiar with alternative treatments and suggested that with my symptoms I should start by trying acupuncture + myofascial release massage for a while before considering steroids or surgery, and it worked.

The issue still recurs if I overdo certain things (caffeine, alcohol, stress, typing, lifting heavy objects, especially with the biceps, bad posture with a dreadnought...), but for now I'm still able to do all those things in moderation and continue playing, so it's not so bad.

You might look into body awareness methods along the lines of Alexander Technique as well, if you can find an instructor. The goal there is learning to identify primary sources of trouble in your posture/habitual movements, as opposed to focusing on the symptoms themselves.
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2019, 02:28 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Originally Posted by dhalbert View Post
@austro1 - I did a little websearching and came up with stuff like this: https://depts.washington.edu/neurolo...uropathies.pdf, which says the original use of "cubital tunnel syndrome" was very specific, and its use has widened (unfortunate, according to the authors). That same paper says the nerve conduction tests need to be done carefully to give a true picture.

"Golfer's elbow" (a casual term: the technical term is medial epicondylitis) is a tendon problem. But it seems like the treatment (rest, braces, icing) would be similar.

Given the two opinions, maybe you should get the doctors to consult with each other, since it's pretty hard for a layperson to come to a conclusion when experts disagree. And maybe they are not really disagreeing: they see a cluster of symptoms and assign a name, and their naming habits may not be the same.
Thanks dhalbert! Yes, I am thinking the same thing. They are both saying similar things but for me some of the physio treatments, ie excercises might be a little different, therefore I'd like a more precise diagnosis.

For example, if it's really primarily the Ulnar nerve, I'd be working on flossing excercises and avoiding bending the elbow a lot.

If it's Tendons I'd probably get back into some eccentric excercises (I did that when I had tendonitis in both arm, works great) etc...maybe using some light weights as well. Just need to know what to specifically target.

But the interesting thing is, the one Dr. said it can't be Ulnar because my Nerve Conduction test came out fine....ie no compression of the nerve.

I also don't have any symptoms of numbness or tingling in the hand.
My only symptom is a little pinch of pain right at the Ulnar Tunnel.

So, my big question was does a negative on the nerve conduction test really completely rule out a problem with the Ulnar nerve.....or can it mean that they Ulnar may just be irritated but not necessary compressed, damaged, etc?? Thanks much for your help!
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  #28  
Old 02-23-2019, 02:33 PM
austro1 austro1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Shape Cloud View Post
Had a couple of tests at the hospital, don't quite recall which, but it was primarily an ulnar issue (some median nerve trouble too, but not as bad).

Went to the doctor because I was experiencing the characteristic numbness in my last two fingers, a few years back. Pretty scary! The PT assigned to me was familiar with alternative treatments and suggested that with my symptoms I should start by trying acupuncture + myofascial release massage for a while before considering steroids or surgery, and it worked.

The issue still recurs if I overdo certain things (caffeine, alcohol, stress, typing, lifting heavy objects, especially with the biceps, bad posture with a dreadnought...), but for now I'm still able to do all those things in moderation and continue playing, so it's not so bad.

You might look into body awareness methods along the lines of Alexander Technique as well, if you can find an instructor. The goal there is learning to identify primary sources of trouble in your posture/habitual movements, as opposed to focusing on the symptoms themselves.

Thanks Dog Shape Cloud!

That's exactly how I got this! I played my brand new dreadnought but with bad posture. I only played for about an hour or so but I guess it was enough to irritate something. I'd only played OM bodied guitars since I'd started playing acoustic.

I hear a lot of guys hear mentioning the acupunture. Usually I wouldn't consider that route but many are saying that's what helped. I'm willing to try it if it keeps me playing. I sure don't want to quit especially with gig offers coming in. Thanks much! I'm gonna try to get a half intellegent diagnosis and then work hard from there.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2019, 08:37 PM
dhalbert dhalbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austro1 View Post
But the interesting thing is, the one Dr. said it can't be Ulnar because my Nerve Conduction test came out fine....ie no compression of the nerve.

I also don't have any symptoms of numbness or tingling in the hand.
My only symptom is a little pinch of pain right at the Ulnar Tunnel.

So, my big question was does a negative on the nerve conduction test really completely rule out a problem with the Ulnar nerve.....or can it mean that they Ulnar may just be irritated but not necessary compressed, damaged, etc?? Thanks much for your help!
I don't know the answer to your big question, but I'll just say that I have a mild ulnar nerve problem that started as tingiing and numbness, and pain only when resting a particular point of my elbow on armrests (in the car and on an office chair). I didn't have any regular pain. So it sounds different from what you have.

I stopped resting my arm on the armrest while driving (or at least the elbow), and I removed the arms from my office chair, and that helped. I also slep with a soft brace to keep me from folding up my arm too much when I was sleeping. I still have a seemingly permanent mild numbness but it's not terrible. I had some PT that was mostly massage and some flossing and wrist-based stretching.
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  #30  
Old 02-23-2019, 09:43 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default Hooray for surgery

About six years ago, I had surgery to reposition my ulnar nerve in my right hand. Symptoms weren't bad yet, just some finger numbness, but my conductivity test proved the problem. I consider it minor surgery. It was done along with a radial arthroplasty, in which a section of "unnecessary" tendon in my forearm was harvested and used to replace the cube-shaped bone at the base of my thumb. My cartilage was gone there, and now the transplanted material serves as bone and cartilage.

All of my rehab work and post-op restrictions, bracing, etc. involved the thumb work. The elbow took healed itself, and I've had no more thought about it. Now the total shoulder replacement I had last year, that was MAJOR surgery. The outcome of that has been very positive; I was playing guitar again after three weeks.

Some folks will delay orthopedic surgery, suffering physical therapy and chronic pain. But if the problem is loss of the cartilage that pads your joint, nothing will bring that back. I was just happy these complex operations are accessible to me, as they weren't for my arthritic ancestors.
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