Musical Preposition Confusion

[Mandobart]

I started playing violin at 10 years old. I had lessons and played in orchestra and jazz band for quite a few years. I'm what sometimes is referred to as classically trained.

We always referred to moving the fingers to play higher notes, whether by moving toward the bridge or crossing to a higher pitched string as going up.

When I started electric bass and acoustic guitar, I stuck with that convention. If I'm picking a run that goes from the G to the B to the high E string I'm going up. "Up the neck" means my fingers are moving toward the bridge. Likewise, my top string is my highest pitched string, not the string that's closest to my face when I'm playing.

I've found over the years that many (primarily self-taught) guitar players use an opposite convention. Their top string is the lowest pitched E. Moving up means their fingers are crossing to a lower pitched string that is a little further off the floor. Some even consider moving their fretting hand toward the nut to be going up.

What's wrong with these folks? How can we straighten them out?

[Shuksan]

I'm not classically trained and I am a self-taught guitar and mandolin player. Even so, the convention you use has always been blatantly obvious to me.

No suggestions on how to straighten out the misguided folks.

[RodB]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

I'm not classically trained and I am a self-taught guitar and mandolin player. Even so, the convention you use has always been blatantly obvious to me.

No suggestions on how to straighten out the misguided folks.

Likewise, although I only play guitar - having had a brief débute on a 1-string fiddle! It never occurred to me that it could be otherwise, let alone the reversed chord diagrams/sequences we sometimes see.

[Silurian]

I can understand why a complete novice would do this but I've never come across any guitarist that has some modicum of experience doing it.

[boombox]

Originally Posted by Silurian

I can understand why a complete novice would do this but I've never come across any guitarist that has some modicum of experience doing it.

Agreed - in standard tuning, bottom E is the lowest note, so it's the bottom string.

What I have sometimes seen though is tablature the opposite way round, which is really confusing, especially when it's a highly alternate tuning to standard.

[Nymuso]

As to the “classically trained” people: they’re fine - unless they announce they’re classically trained when you first meet.

[rokdog49]

Minutiae overload.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I....

What's wrong with these folks? How can we straighten them out?

Well, musical notation uses frequency as the reference for "up" or "down".
Guitars are strung upside down so, the best way to "fix them" is to go back in time and have the first stringed instruments built with the low strings on the bottom and the high strings on top. This will remove all confusion.

I took music theory in college so know just a tiny bit and my other advice is to ignore classical training - its much easier. They're also the ones who tell you there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do everything (how to hold you hand, how to sit, how to place your thumb, etc)

[Gitfiddlemann]

"Hi, my name is Andre, and I'm classically trained".

Welcome Andre! It took a lot for you to admit that! Hi Andre....

Seriously, two points:
- I don't consider myself classically trained, since I only took classical guitar lessons later in my self-taught guitar journey. If I had Mandobart's background, i.e. learning as a child violinist, I definitely would.
- I never think about which side of the fretboard I am on, whether that's up or down, high or low. It's meaningless info really.
Wherever it is you end up, the reason has to be that it's the easiest path for your fingers to make the music sound best. Sometimes it's high, sometimes it's low. Sometimes it's both. That should be the only goal.
(And that's why fingering a piece to your liking is an important component of learning it).

[Golffishny]

The e string is high. The E string is top.

[Murphy Slaw]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

What's wrong with these folks? How can we straighten them out?

You can't.

These are the same people who say things are "fire".

Or "lit".

Just ignore them.

[Silurian]

I'm YouTube "classically" trained, which simply means that I started out on JustinGuitar.

[rmp]

why bother? ignorance is bliss.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by boombox

What I have sometimes seen though is tablature the opposite way round, which is really confusing, especially when it's a highly alternate tuning to standard.

Especially in lap steel tab. Apparently Hawaiian guitar tab was written that way in the 1920s, and "purists" try to maintain the format. Even dobros are sometimes said to be tuned "DBGDBG".

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I started playing violin at 10 years old. I had lessons and played in orchestra and jazz band for quite a few years. I'm what sometimes is referred to as classically trained.

We always referred to moving the fingers to play higher notes, whether by moving toward the bridge or crossing to a higher pitched string as going up.

When I started electric bass and acoustic guitar, I stuck with that convention. If I'm picking a run that goes from the G to the B to the high E string I'm going up. "Up the neck" means my fingers are moving toward the bridge. Likewise, my top string is my highest pitched string, not the string that's closest to my face when I'm playing.

I've found over the years that many (primarily self-taught) guitar players use an opposite convention. Their top string is the lowest pitched E. Moving up means their fingers are crossing to a lower pitched string that is a little further off the floor. Some even consider moving their fretting hand toward the nut to be going up.

What's wrong with these folks? How can we straighten them out?

Yup, I teach and find that this is a very common confusion.

Whilst we think in terms of going up /down in terms of pitch, many think in terms of what is nearest/furthest to their view - i.e. the top E is "down" and the bass E is "up" They also think of the nut as up and the saddle as down.

I simply tell them of the common principle, two or three times and they get it.

Its a bit like my dear wife describing where somewhere is by telling me that it is "up" the road then round and over.

Reminds me of back in 2004 or 2005 when I was driving west on the 290 from Austin looking for Luckenbach and Wimberley and was told to turn left before We got to Fredericksburg.
Doh!

I think someone was messing with the limey!