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  #46  
Old 06-20-2016, 05:47 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
it's arrogance to think that you are the only one that knows everything and everyone else gets lumped into the category of "just gets their info from the internet."
Its amazing how people take little snippets of information from a conversation and and it slowly spirals out of control from there.
If we summarize my posts
Mike mentioned,
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Originally Posted by 00-28 View Post
There are more questionable Luthiers out there than ones that I trust. How do I know this? Unfortunately, experience..........Mike
I responded with
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
The problem Mike, is some people think they can buy some tools from Stewmac or some other online supplier of tools and hang a shingle over there shed in there back yard and call themselves a luthier. Calling yourself a luthier is one thing, offering that service on a commercial scale is an entirely different thing.
You have come along with a statement and blurb whilst I was discussing a topic with Mike
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
It's a myopic view that a commercial business shouldn't have to ask for advice. Not everyone in the field started off knowing everything, and not everyone in the field has encountered every single type of repair... and there's seemingly an infinite number of problems.
In fact I'd be more wary of someone that never asked for advice, claimed to know everything. ..
I have addressed my reply to you
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
I guess we will have to agree to dis-agree.
So let's see,
You take your car to a mechanic and it needs a new piston, so would you let the mechanic work on your car if he needs to ask a forum how to change the piston
And now your latest reply
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Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
it's arrogance to think that you are the only one that knows everything and everyone else gets lumped into the category of "just gets their info from the internet."
I do not by a long shot think I am the only one, I give an opinion based on what I do.

None of this deflects from my initial comment to Mike, that the problem with this industry is, there are people with no real world experience that go and buy some tools from business's like stewmac, hang a shingle over there shed and call themselves a luthier and attempt to sell there services as a commercial entity.

Steve
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Last edited by mirwa; 06-20-2016 at 07:27 PM.
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  #47  
Old 06-20-2016, 06:44 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
For those of you who do compression fretting, in what cases do you feel that it's inappropriate to plane a board, and when is it okay?
I am going to give 2 cents worth, especially since I helped derail your post.

To start with, I am a designated Warranty repair agent for Martins Distributors in my country, I state this because I get people with older Martins bring me there guitars.

My customers know way more than me about whats original and whats not on vintage guitars.

For older guitars with solid truss block or no truss at all, I slip the fretboard, that is, I put the guitar into backbow with clamps and with heat slip the board.

I have also retro fitted older guitars with functional working truss rods

I have also retro fitted twin carbon fibre truss rods under the fretboard as well, so it retains the original look but with the strength of carbon fibre.

I give all the options of what I can do to the customer and they make the decision on which path to follow.

As far as compression fretting, unless we are epoxying (floating) the frets in, then all refrets IMO are compression fret jobs, it just varies to the degree of how much.

I always level a board out before I do any fret work, to me its kind of pointless doing otherwise.

Note: as Bruce mentioned on the other page, you cannot really plane a fretboard fitted with mother of pearl, it chips out, breaks off and yes damages your tools. Its small things like this that show a person knows what there doing.

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Last edited by mirwa; 06-20-2016 at 08:09 PM.
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  #48  
Old 06-20-2016, 11:02 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirwa
You take your car to a mechanic and it needs a new piston, so would you let the mechanic work on your car if he needs to ask a forum how to change the piston

You need to have your gall bladder removed, would you allow the doctor to do the surgery after he needs to consult a forum on how to do it.

Your taxes need to be done, how much confidence would you have if your accountant had to ask a forum on how to work out a depreciation schedule or something similar.

Your treasured guitar needs the x braces replaced, would you let someone who has never done the repair practice on your guitar after they consult a forum first.

If you are being paid to do a job, it is arrogance to assume that you can learn on some one else's pride and joy after consulting a forum on how to do it.

Practice on your own stuff, repair your friends if you want, people comment on how bad there guitars have been set up by luthiers, yet most of the time these people are not luthiers, simply someone hanging a shingle and wanting to learn the trade at your expense.

You want skills, go and apprentice with someone that has the real world skills.
My issue is who you refer to as "you." You, the collective internet community, me, Mr. Hot Vibrato? I agree with most of what you say (sans government regulation). But this is a bit ridiculous.

Without looking, I'm assuming the original thread is in the General Discussion section? Things like this are the main reason I haven't looked there in a couple years.
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  #49  
Old 06-21-2016, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
A friend pointed out that my name was invoked in the thread that generated this one.
Guilty. I don't think I misrepresented your views in that context, but apologize if I did. Thanks for clarifying here.
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  #50  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:37 AM
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As this has become a thread of controversy, I thought it best to make a clear statement, not that I felt misrepresented . . . Yet.

It is true (in my mind) that all fretting is or should be a kind of compression fretting as the fingerboard relies on the presence of the frets to have its strength. But actually, compression fretting usually means using frets with baying thickness tangs in order to control the exact relief of the neck. The modern truss rod, which did not yet exist to my knowledge when I started building, has obviated the need for frets to fit tightly, but I personally feel like I have failed to do the work properly if I am using glue to hold them in or down, not that I hesitate to do so when needed.
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  #51  
Old 06-21-2016, 03:35 PM
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A buddy and I recently made the trip from East Tennessee to Ann Arbor Michigan for a "pro fretting and set up" class. His guitar was a Martin 1968 O-16NY that he purchased new and over the years had become unplayable. He "compression fretted" his guitar, I was a casual observer from the adjacent bench, very subtle approach, Fretboard was leveled with a 16" sanding beam (I believe he got his from Murmac) minimal stock removal then going mainly by feel and careful observation of how the neck was responding, just a hint of backbow was introduced. After a very assiduous fret level, crown and polish when strung up it was absolutely perfect. The key being minimal stock removal, superb action and playability.
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  #52  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:26 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
The problem Mike, is some people think they can buy some tools from Stewmac or some other online supplier of tools and hang a shingle over there shed in there back yard and call themselves a luthier. Calling yourself a luthier is one thing, offering that service on a commercial scale is an entirely different thing.

If a customer was silly enough to use someone like this, then they are matched for each other.

We are in a society where social media rules, it takes almost no effort to look up the person you are going to use and read reviews on them.

To this end, a wary customer will look at who endorses that luthier, are they endorsed from a manufacturer, do they work for multiple guitar stores (not one), there are lots of questions that should be asked before taking it to be repaired.

Steve
I don't know what you do or do not know about repairing instruments, and I don't care about your spelling.

As a new paying sponsor of this forum I have now been here long enough to observe a pattern with your posting style and behavior.

You are a person who starts fights based on HOW you disagree with people. I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me or anything I say, and I feel most people are the same, cordial disagreement on a forum is quite normal. I'm not going to PM you or write a moderator to complain about your posting style, I'll just tell you right here right now, PLEASE STOP STARING FIGHTS WITH YOUR AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE. It's not so much what you say, its how you're saying it.

Thank you very much
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  #53  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:32 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
I have had guitars where the fingerboard had been planed so much that the neck was uncomfortably thin near the nut. Typically, those were Martins where the neck was thin at the nut from the factory.
I have planed plenty of fingerboards in my earlier years, but the concern I outlined is real, and will tend to affect playability and vintage value. Also consider that reducing fingerboard thickness will make the neck less stiff, and may contribute to more neck bowing in the future. It is a similar argument that is often raised when shaving a bridge to lower the action. A thinner bridge can allow the top to belly more.
A third alternative (which I have mainly used on wartime ebony bar Martins and the later square tube reinforced Martins) is to remove and reglue the fingerboard with hot hide glue. A caul with a slight curvature is used so that the neck has a small amount of back-bow before restringing. If done carefully, it may not even require new frets.....provided the existing frets have sufficient height. A simple fret leveling may complete the job.
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Originally Posted by Tom West View Post
Just to throw another log on the fire. When I first started building in the 70's I used a book written by David Russell Young,in it he advocated a solid steel non-adjustable truss rod that was 1/4" by 1/2". When making these necks one had to make sure there was back bow built in so that the board would end up with a reasonable relief when strings were tuned to pitch. If one use a perfectly flat board you ended up with excessive relief. This just supports what John A. is saying about using a caul to build in back bow to re-glue an existing fretted fretboard. While these neck were solid and usually were quite stable it was a pain in the butt and the jump to adjustable rods was a relief for myself.
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Originally Posted by redir View Post
That's interesting to hear because over the years I've finally settled down on my style of fretting and that is to put the frets in very easily. I cut the slots wider then recommended and glue them in usually with fish glue. I do this for guitars I build, if it's a refret I don't go and widen the slots. But once I get a fretboard perfect I don't want hammering frets in to alter it so I like the 'loose' fret method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
I've never tried doing it this way.... I've always hammered my frets in, albeit with not a lot of force, or use my drill press as an arbor with fret-pressing cauls, when I have to do a "vintage" style, non-compound radius neck. But then, on my new builds, for a Strat-style neck, I insert the frets before carving, even if shaping on CNC, and for my acoustics, I've employed the Mario Proulx idea of fretting the fingerboard first, then inducing a "bow" on the board to "seat" the fret tangs and remove any back-bow that may occur from fretting. Once I unclamp the board, it sits flat with no "compression" back-bow from the frets. For repairs, I'll either crimp or file the tangs as necessary.
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Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
I think you'll find most of the folks I mentioned in the other thread take the opposite view, that frets should be tightly fit for the best tone. Based on my experience, I agree. While nearly everyone respects Don Teeter, and to be fair his early work came at a time when steel string guitar repair had not developed a great deal, I think you'll find very few vintage repairmen these days that don't wince at the idea of loose frets and certainly wouldn't recommend the epoxy route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
It is true (in my mind) that all fretting is or should be a kind of compression fretting as the fingerboard relies on the presence of the frets to have its strength. But actually, compression fretting usually means using frets with baying thickness tangs in order to control the exact relief of the neck. The modern truss rod, which did not yet exist to my knowledge when I started building, has obviated the need for frets to fit tightly, but I personally feel like I have failed to do the work properly if I am using glue to hold them in or down, not that I hesitate to do so when needed.
In the interest of steering the conversation back on topic, I've skimmed this thread and quoted some (but not all) of the more relevant responses. The above posts represent the type of exchange I was hoping this thread would generate, and I truly appreciate all of your input.

Regarding fitting frets tightly vs. loosely, I think it's worth mentioning why some of us are inclined to shoot for a looser fit. This was mentioned by Redir, and it has to do with how the neck distorts due to fret compression. The tighter you fit the frets, the more relief you lose. The appeal of fitting the frets looser is that the shape of the fingerboard stays closer to the way you planed it. Those who prefer tighter fitting slots must anticipate the way the compression will affect the neck, and factor that in accordingly. This means the tighter the fit, the more guesswork is involved, and I don't like having to guess when I'm trying to be precise. That said, I don't like them to fit too sloppy either, therefore my current method of fretting is somewhat of a compromise. I'm shooting for a minimal change in the shape of the board, while still maintaining somewhat of a compression fit - but not so much that I would feel confident not using glue.

Despite my tendency to not fit the frets too tightly, I still anticipate losing .001"-.003" of relief because of fret compression. For those of you who fit frets tightly enough that glue is not required, I wonder if you would talk a little about your strategy for leveling the fingerboard. And if anyone has anything else to offer about compression fretting vintage Martins, I'm all ears.

Regarding "planing" vs. "leveling", I never thought about it before, but I've always used those terms interchangeably, so I apologize for the confusion. I never actually used a plane iron for fingerboard leveling. I bought one when I was working on my first build, simply because it was one of the tools Melvin Hiscock recommends for leveling fingerboards in his book. But before I had the chance to use it for that, I was offered a job at the guitar repair shop, and I was trained to level frets and fingerboards with a long, flat sanding board, which is actually a modified auto body tool called a file board (which is a misnomer - it should be called a sandpaper board). I still use the same tool for much of my leveling needs, and many other things not related to fret work.

FWIW, I find online forums to be incredibly beneficial at their best, and absolutely infuriating at their worst. But in this case, because of a polite disagreement, a dialogue took place which has altered my views and cleared up some of my misconceptions on the subject of compression fretting - to a degree that I'm re-thinking my approach to vintage Martin refrets. Thanks guys for taking the time to discuss this!

Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 06-21-2016 at 08:47 PM.
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  #54  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:05 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
In the interest of steering the conversation back on topic, I've skimmed this thread and quoted some (but not all) of the more relevant responses. The above posts represent the type of exchange I was hoping this thread would generate, and I truly appreciate all of your input.

Regarding fitting frets tightly vs. loosely, I think it's worth mentioning why some of us are inclined to shoot for a looser fit. This was mentioned by Redir, and it has to do with how the neck distorts due to fret compression. The tighter you fit the frets, the more relief you lose. The appeal of fitting the frets looser is that the shape of the fingerboard stays closer to the way you planed it. Those who prefer tighter fitting slots must anticipate the way the compression will affect the neck, and factor that in accordingly. This means the tighter the fit, the more guesswork is involved, and I don't like having to guess when I'm trying to be precise. That said, I don't like them to fit too sloppy either, therefore my current method of fretting is somewhat of a compromise. I'm shooting for a minimal change in the shape of the board, while still maintaining somewhat of a compression fit - but not so much that I would feel confident not using glue.

Despite my tendency to not fit the frets too tightly, I still anticipate losing .001"-.003" of relief because of fret compression. For those of you who fit frets tightly enough that glue is not required, I wonder if you would talk a little about your strategy for leveling the fingerboard. And if anyone has anything else to offer about compression fretting vintage Martins, I'm all ears.

Regarding "planing" vs. "leveling", I never thought about it before, but I've always used those terms interchangeably, so I apologize for the confusion. I never actually used a plane iron for fingerboard leveling. I bought one when I was working on my first build, simply because it was one of the tools Melvin Hiscock recommends for leveling fingerboards in his book. But before I had the chance to use it for that, I was offered a job at the guitar repair shop, and I was trained to level frets and fingerboards with a long, flat sanding board, which is actually a modified auto body tool called a file board (which is a misnomer - it should be called a sandpaper board). I still use the same tool for much of my leveling needs, and many other things not related to fret work.

FWIW, I find online forums to be incredibly beneficial at their best, and absolutely infuriating at their worst. But in this case, because of a polite disagreement, a dialogue took place which has altered my views and cleared up some of my misconceptions on the subject of compression fretting - to a degree that I'm re-thinking my approach to vintage Martin refrets. Thanks guys for taking the time to discuss this!
I do not work on vintage Martins so I really can't speak to this topic much, however, for me what this topic does do is shine light on the subject of design and architecture of the "guitar" . Without getting bombarded with rotten eggs and tomatoes I would simply state that IMO there are many improvements that can be made within the design and architecture that would improve it structurally without sonic loss.

The introduction of the truss rod is a prime example, let alone a two-way adjustable rod. I "think" the progression went, no rod, then the steel tube rod, then the one way adjustable, and now the two way rod. Never the less some ABSOLUTE GENIUS developed the adjustable rod {I'm sure someone here knows who} but it's sad to me that it took as long as it did for it to become standard issue in most all guitars as the nut and bolt were around for quite some time prior to the Martin co. starting up.

The only guitars I will repair are mine, that being said I do find these topics very interesting in that it helps me think about things I don't want my instruments to do. I AM NOT MARTIN BASHER, I think they are a great company with a great product and that everyone here has learned something from them one way or another, I just think that by being one of the first factory made guitars they have had all their trials and errors exposed for all to see. We all know there's a million lessons to be learned in one failure and that their history, good bad and ugly is a great historical learning experience for what works and what we want to do, and sometimes, not what we want to do.
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  #55  
Old 06-21-2016, 11:49 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
I'll just tell you right here right now, PLEASE STOP STARING FIGHTS WITH YOUR AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE. It's not so much what you say, its how you're saying it.

Thank you very much
Are you kidding me.

Never have I posted something like this in response to a person asking how to remove and refit a bridge

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430319

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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
To bad it's not a Goldastini, it would have never deformed like that based on the arch strength , but if it did, a repair person could have the top off in 10 or 15 min....oh well,

"dohm,dohm,dohm....another one bites the dust, and another ones gone, another ones gone"
The audacity of you to lecture me, is mind boggling.

The topics get steered of course, by those that interject a second opinion on a conversation being held between someone else, they may personally feel they have been affronted, they may feel they have a duty to speak out, its irrelevant the reasons why, this sometimes gets heated opinions, sometimes that does not get heated, in the above instance you will note I never replied to loui's last comment, this was becuase I felt he may have been affronted by my statements and taken them personally which was not my intent, as such I left the conversation with loui having the last say, but never have I been so condescending to another person that asks for help on a repair such as that I referenced above.

In the last 4 weeks I have commented on 4 topics,

Here is a link to a question someone just asked a couple of days ago, please feel free to show me where my trend of being aggressive according to you is predominant in that response

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=433883

The other topic I have replied to in the last 2 weeks

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=432931

And then the only other topic I have replied to in the last 3 weeks

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430260



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Last edited by mirwa; 06-22-2016 at 12:39 AM.
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  #56  
Old 06-22-2016, 12:48 AM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
Are you kidding me.

Never have I posted something like this in response to a person asking how to remove and refit a bridge

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430319



The audacity of you to lecture me, is mind boggling.

The topics get steered of course, by those that interject a second opinion on a conversation being held between someone else, they may personally feel they have been affronted, they may feel they have a duty to speak out, its irrelevant the reasons why, this sometimes gets heated opinions, sometimes that does not get heated, in the above instance you will note I never replied to loui's last comment, this was becuase I felt he may have been affronted by my statements and taken them personally which was not my intent, as such I left the conversation with loui having the last say, but never have I been so condescending to another person that asks for help on a repair such as that I referenced above.

In the last 4 weeks I have commented on 4 topics,

Here is a link to a question someone just asked a couple of days ago, please feel free to show me where my trend of being aggressive according to you is predominant in that response

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=433883

The other topic I have replied to in the last 2 weeks

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=432931

And then the only other topic I have replied to in the last 3 weeks

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430260



Steve
lets not ruin this post, you can always start another on the topic or you can pm me if like
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  #57  
Old 06-22-2016, 06:01 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
Purists are so full of it, they have no concept of whats required to achieve a good playable guitar, every guitar is different every guitar requires a different approach.

There is no right or wrong way, its what way works for you.

Luthiers are paid for there knowledge / wisdom and experience in said matters, what takes others days and weeks of trolling forums, takes seconds for us to access under a good eye.

Steve
I've been reading this thread... It is probably safe to say that compression fretting is a more advanced fretwork technique, which can be put to good use in certain situations. That said, there are times when compression fretting alone is not the best fix.

Steve, I'm passing this one along to you FWIW... Another person called you "aggressive". I can't quite agree with that, but if you look at your first comment on this thread above - "Purists are so full of it". I think most people would agree that this is an adversarial/confrontational/inflammatory type of expression. It will add little value in moving the conversation ahead, and it will have a high chance of raising people's hackles. Then, as people reacted to you, you seem to have taken a defensive tone, and things continued spiralling.

Boys and girls... It's all good!! Put out your ideas, let people see them, and take them or leave them. Father's day just passed. Even though I had a fine day with my wife and 2 kids, my thoughts were of a friend who lost his boy a few years ago. Recently there was the 2 year old stolen and drowned by a gator. In my neck of the woods, a 4 year old drowned last week in his grandparents grimy swimming pool. There are a lot better things to devote one's efforts than arguing publicly on a forum. Praise the day, and be thankful.

My sermon is over.

Oh, and compression fretting is fine, if one understands its effects and limitations.

Oh, and I'd hesitate to remove excessive amounts of fingerboard material for reasons already expressed in this thread.

Since many (most/all??) older Martin's were nitro finished, even an operation like removing the FB to replace the truss is much more feasible than on a Yamaha with thick poly something-or-other finish that makes is difficult to burn in future layers if a similar repair was necessary.
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  #58  
Old 06-22-2016, 06:21 AM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Totally agree, and yes when I wrote the purists are xx I knew it was inflammatory at the start.

Whoops...

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  #59  
Old 06-22-2016, 07:56 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
I "think" the progression went, no rod, then the steel tube rod, then the one way adjustable, and now the two way rod.
On Martins:
No rod, ebony bar, steel tee bar, ebony during WWII, back to tee bar, steel square tube, aluminum channel one-way rod, two-way rod, tee bar on Authentics.

Gibson is generally credited with inventing the adjustable rod in the 1920's. Martin has historically been conservative when it comes to changes. For example, they were the last (by over 30 years) to abandon bar frets. Bar frets introduced the concept of compression fretting. Bar fret necks can hold up to steel string tension with no reinforcement.
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  #60  
Old 06-22-2016, 08:18 AM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
On Martins:
No rod, ebony bar, steel tee bar, ebony during WWII, back to tee bar, steel square tube, aluminum channel one-way rod, two-way rod, tee bar on Authentics.

Gibson is generally credited with inventing the adjustable rod in the 1920's. Martin has historically been conservative when it comes to changes. For example, they were the last (by over 30 years) to abandon bar frets. Bar frets introduced the concept of compression fretting. Bar fret necks can hold up to steel string tension with no reinforcement.
John, do you think the change to tang frets eventually ushered the use of adjustable truss rods in Martins, since the barbs on the tangs would eventually dig into the slot walls, reducing their force on the neck?
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