A dumb question

[Stratcat77]

This has been a hotly debated topic on this forum many times.

Without being political, this is sort of Ike politics! I don’t think you’ll ever change someone’s opinion if they’ve already formed one!

Many pros use teleprompters on stage. And a lot of them also use prerecorded backing vocals and keys, etc in their show with the band following a click track. I’m not a fan of it, but I get it.

For what it’s worth, when I played in bands, I never used lyric sheets. We were putting on a show. I was younger and memorizing the words to the dozen or so songs I sang out of our set list of 40-50 songs was quite easy.

Now I do an acoustic duo. We sit on stools - some probably think that is also not “professional”? We each have dozens of songs in our repertoire. Actually, a quick look at my iPad shows we each have over 100 songs that we perform regularly for a total of over 200 in our set lists.. And I have over 1000 songs with chords and lyrics saved on my iPad for that odd request. It’s just a very different gig from the full band show. And the truth is, at almost 60, I probably would have a hard time memorizing everything!

That said, we are paid well and have a strong following. We’ve never had any in our audience comment about our use of iPads other than to ask what program we use.

So if you think using a tablet onstage is unprofessional, that’s ok. I sort of understand where you’re coming from. And I accept that I probably can’t change your mind!

Love ya!

[Rickenbacker1]

I just believe part of journey of playing out is putting the time in to learn what you are playing. I am just a hack so I play what I want to play where I want to play. I always feel the people I play for deserve my very best..The duo last week were playing Johnny Cash , Patsy Cline type songs . When I was a kid learning to play I trained at a studio and they pushed us to practice practice practice . I still follow that. .

[FrankHudson]

As StratCat above put it, this is a reoccurring opinion-fest.

As some have pointed out upthread: how much of a show/center of attention the venue/act/etc is a factor.

I think music/lyrics assistance is a logistical thing. As it's often done (including by some so professional it hurts acts) it doesn't impact the strategic goal of pleasing an audience. It probably is easier to conceal with a big venue/stage. Harder to hide in a small club/room.

Folk music? Yes, I can understand that when detectable it may weaken the performance effect. Jazz? Much less so. Last concert I went to had some highly complex charts for some passages. Orchestral/composed music: I expect scores, and the music still moves me. One could make a purist music argument that the act could be all ugly folks wearing speedos with garlic breath detectable in the first few rows -- and if the music was good that would be what we should evaluate the event on. Obviously, that's not where I'd expect the money to pour in for.

On that logistical level, I can no longer memorize what I used to. If I was regularly playing live with a large setlist that I had to keep fresh with new pieces I'd have to use music/lyrics support. I don't, so I won't be convicted by the OP, but if I was, and was a professional, I do what I needed to put on the best show for my intents and audiences, which might include compromises on what the ideal situation could be. I think that's one of the essences of what being a professional is.

[jjbigfly]

At 74 I am still playing out, and no, I do not recall many tunes anymore. So I have used printed sheets and now an Ipad. I suppose I should buck up and quit as I may be offending other musicians (NEVER heard anyone in any audience even mention it). Yeah, let’s toss 50 years of playing as I should be done now. Right?
Honestly, I still enjoy it and the audience claims to enjoy it also. No matter what any of us may be thinking….the audience sets the standard….not other musicians.
I have seen this topic numerous times and I still feel the same. Music is about the sound, not how it looks.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RJVB

There's a point here: what do you do with your gaze when not looking at a score.

Good question!

I never use sheet music, and I rarely actually need to look at my fretboard.
But - as a sufferer from imposter syndrome (and shy) - I have problems looking at the audience; because if I catch anyone's eye, I think they're going to see right through me, spot that I'm faking it, with no right to be there.
So I tend to just gaze at my fretboard, or somewhere where I can't catch anyone's eye, or just close my eyes.

Originally Posted by RJVB

Or idem, with your hands, if not holding an instrument or a score.

Singers are interesting to watch, for this reason. Most singers perform various movements with their hands, sometimes to help express whatever it is they are singing, but sometimes seemingly to help them pitch their notes. But also, no doubt, a lot of the time it's a kind of nervous movement because they don't want to just stand with their hands by their sides.

Originally Posted by RJVB

Many times classical soloist singers WILL use a score, and in that case it IS often as a reference to the melody and what others are doing... or for the number of times some part of a standard religious text is repeated . They will study this though, and just like any good instrumentalist will only need the score for periodic glances, a good singer will ensure to look in the direction of either audience or another singer when that's appropriate. Or the director, evidently.

Right. This notion of "eye contact" matters in bands too: especially in jazz, but also in most other genres where sheet music is not used. There are cues for when solos begin or end, or when to move to the ending of a song, or to move to another section; or when to raise or lower the dynamic, and so on. So all the musicians need to pay attention, making group eye contact at any place where such a change in the song might occur - unless, of course, such changes are always thoroughly rehearsed and memorized. But even then, glances are frequent for confirmation.

It's also good for the relationship with the audience, that a band is not just standing there going through the motions, but you see them interacting with one another.

Originally Posted by RJVB

Guitarists are a bit of an outlier here, I cannot really think of many other instruments (that aren't plucked and fretted) where players tend to focus on their fretting hand if their gaze is not riveted to a score. That too is something that comes across as unprofessional to me, in the sense "s/he still needs it". After all, I tend to do it myself, and I definitely still need it (but I'm working on it ).

Yes. If you need to do it, you need to do it .

Mostly I don't, but there are still those occasions where I need to jump up or down the fretboard and need to be sure I land on the right fret! Very few guitarists, even among the best, can do that without looking. But self-consciousness also means I often stare at my fretboard when I really don't need to. Again, I suspect a lot of pros do that.

Originally Posted by RJVB

So, the part where "song & dance" players look at each others fretting hands ... that's just for show after all and not to know what's going on? O:-)

The only times I've ever looked at another player's fretting hand is when (a) I've not been sure what key we're in or what a particular chord is (eg in a jam, or when playing an under-rehearsed song), or (b) when they played a wrong chord and I was wondering wtf was that?

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Good question!

I know
(BTW, there are no dumb questions ... only dumb answers ...)

But also, no doubt, a lot of the time it's a kind of nervous movement because they don't want to just stand with their hands by their sides.

Indeed. And I'm quite certain you'll find renaissance and/or baroque period rules for what to do with your hands.

Mostly I don't, but there are still those occasions where I need to jump up or down the fretboard and need to be sure I land on the right fret! Very few guitarists, even among the best, can do that without looking.

As a (former) violinist I wonder why that is. On a violin it's just about impossible to control your intonation visually, so we don't, basically. Everyone who's seen violin concertos being performed has probably seen the soloist prepare his fingering before some tricky stratospheric entry, only to drop the left hand and then place it perfectly at just the right time. I see no reason why that would be impossible on guitar - although modern violin necks are standardised with the heel of the pegbox providing a reference for 1st position and the heel of the neck for I forgot what high position (too long since I played modern violin).

The only times I've ever looked at another player's fretting hand is when (a) I've not been sure what key we're in or what a particular chord is (eg in a jam, or when playing an under-rehearsed song), or (b) when they played a wrong chord and I was wondering wtf was that?

As a classically trained player I find this awe-inspiring (I first observed it in an impromptu jam session by teachers at an early music summer school btw). I find it hard enough already to see what fingers are actually playing what fret, even in video courses where you're supposed to see that, and find it hard to believe that one could learn to determine what notes are being played from that fuzzy information, and then to process what the chord is (esp. since there are often 2 or more solutions). And all that in (better than) real time.
Heh, in other words, it's about as impressive as using a lightsabre to reflect a laserbolt back to its expeditor

[Stratcat77]

Originally Posted by jjbigfly

No matter what any of us may be thinking….the audience sets the standard….not other musicians.

THIS.

In my 40 years of performing, it has been other musicians who tend to be the most critical and opinionated. Many times, these are musicians who do not perform in public, but seem to have strong opinions about how those of us who do get paid to perform should do so. I find that profile often is most critical of song selections as well. Interesting coming from those who don’t get paid to entertain. Armchair quarterbacks.

I quit paying attention to their input years ago because, as JJBIGFLY states, it’s about the audience - made up mostly of non-musicians.

So, yes, I’ll play Brown Eyed Girl for a table full of ladies all begging us to play it. Not one of them has ever said, “ooh, I can’t believe you are using an iPad??” And while I’m as sick of that song as all of my musician buddies, I’ll give it all I’ve got to satisfy the audience. That’s what I get paid to do. And I actually have fun doing it. Not because it’s musically satisfying, but because I get pleasure out of seeing others have fun. We play plenty of challenging songs that I love that redeem my integrity (ha ha), but I’m not above doing something cheesy to please the audience.

Happy Fathers Day to all you guitar picking daddys!

[KevWind]

I don't think the question is dumb .... "Loaded" perhaps but not dumb. Because it seems to assume or imply it is somehow unprofessional or lazy to have cheat sheets or iPad etc.
As far as full length gigs ignores the concept of :::::
Oh to be young agin and be able to memorize three or fours sets worth of material down cold
Which was what I did from my 20s thru my early 60s but at 72 I can't seem to do it anymore but for me that is no excuse to stop performing

Now as for the one open mic I go to I still memorize the 2 to 4 songs I might play

That said I do agree that if you are using them for a gig :
#1 they should not be an obvious distraction and they should be organized so as to flow from one to the next (IN order and instantly ) for example there are tablet programs the need no more than a 1 second sideways swipe to go the next song and have timed scrolling features if longer than 1 screen , so it definitely need not be distracting to the audience
#2 If you do use cheat sheets You should still definitely be aware of and make repeated eye contact with the audience .

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Indeed. And I'm quite certain you'll find renaissance and/or baroque period rules for what to do with your hands.

well, conductors might have used the "Guidonian hand", I guess... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidonian_hand
- and there's the similar Kodaly system today.

But I've also seen pop or jazz singers who seem to have their own personal system. This woman is an old friend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD2EpsJVsSM. She was doing it even when I knew her as an amateur, and I always found it somewhat off-putting - and it must have been confusing sometimes for accompanying musicians expecting cue signs - but its become a kind of personal signature.

Originally Posted by RJVB

As a (former) violinist I wonder why that is. On a violin it's just about impossible to control your intonation visually, so we don't, basically. Everyone who's seen violin concertos being performed has probably seen the soloist prepare his fingering before some tricky stratospheric entry, only to drop the left hand and then place it perfectly at just the right time. I see no reason why that would be impossible on guitar

Well, guitars have frets, so players have no need to learn intonation aurally! Violinists train their ears as a matter of course, linking ear and position from the beginning.

But also, guitar necks are a lot longer than violin necks - more opportunity to miss the right position.

Here is one of the greatest acoustic guitarists of all time, with his own arrangement of a tune he'd been paying for 10 years by this time: but listen to what happens at 0:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tMNgdYMydw. He overshoots his move, hitting a fret higher than he wanted. (My guess is that he was playing in a lower key than usual, and when he moved his hand up - taking his eyes off his fretboard - his hand instinctively went to the position he was more familiar with in the past. Of course he knew straight way, fixed it immediately without stopping and laughed it off.)

Originally Posted by RJVB

As a classically trained player I find this awe-inspiring (I first observed it in an impromptu jam session by teachers at an early music summer school btw). I find it hard enough already to see what fingers are actually playing what fret, even in video courses where you're supposed to see that, and find it hard to believe that one could learn to determine what notes are being played from that fuzzy information, and then to process what the chord is (esp. since there are often 2 or more solutions). And all that in (better than) real time.

Well, it's not a lightning fast recognition. It might take a second or two.

In the case of someone playing a wrong chord, they usually realise it themselves (and move their hands) quicker than it takes other musicians to look and see what they did. (So you end up raising your eyebrows at them instead! ).

In the former case of trying to guess a key or chord by looking, it's obviously trickier if the chords are changing every second or so. But guitarists can easily identify the common chord shapes by looking, at least the familiar "cowboy chords" in open position. It takes less than a second, even for relative beginners - those shapes become hard-wired in your brain early on.

But for more unusual chords, especially shapes higher up the fretboard - yes, that's not easy at all. It might need the player to be holding the chord a long time, and for me to really stare hard and count frets... wtf IS that chord??

[The Bard Rocks]

IPad or sheet music, to me there is a huge distinction between "buried in" and "glanced at". Fortunately, I am old enough that folks forgive me for glancing.

[rule18]

In all the years I gigged, I memorized most of the material BUT every so often I'd use a chart or two, no big deal. There's nothing wrong with glancing at a chart while performing. As other posters have mentioned, many pros do it regularly. As an example, Billy Joel's customized pianos include a nice screen recessed into where the sheet music would normally be found. Other performers have a teleprompter-type device built into one of their wedge monitors on the floor.

[raysachs]

Some VERY big named bands have used scrolling lyric (and maybe chords) “cheat sheets” for decades. I’m aware of them in the 80s and 90s - not sure if the tech was there for them before that. They were on what looked like floor stage monitors and there were a few of them spread across the front of the stage, mixed in with the stage monitors. Only the biggest fans were aware of them - most of the audience didn’t know and, obviously, didn’t care. With a couple of bands I followed closely, I knew and didn’t care. I’m sure there were many other acts doing it that I didn’t know and didn’t care.

As the great old jazz pianist, Oscar Peterson once said, “there are two kinds of music - good music and bad music”. If a musician or group of them are playing good music, I don’t care what sorts of aids they use to play it. And if someone isn’t pulling off a good live performance, I don’t care what aids they’re NOT using to do it. And in both cases, it doesn’t matter whether I know or don’t know. AFAIC, those acts using iPads on stage are different from those big acts in one key respect - they can’t afford those big stage monitor type lyric scrollers and the crew to run them… To those who are offended by iPads on stage, I’d posit that it’s just because you can see them and you know what they’re using them for.

-Ray

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Rickenbacker1

I play acoustic open mic several times a month and play a gig now and then. Last week I was in one of the local restaurants/ bar listening to a duo . The duo had an I pad in front of them and they read music from the I pad . I believe if you are going to play out don’t use an I pad or sheet music ……learn the song to me this doesn’t look professional . What do you guys think ?

That's absolutely fine ...in theory.

I am very, very old, and my brain ran our of RAM years ago.
I don't have an Ipad -i have a 4 ring binder with sleeved song "cheat sheets".

Yesterday I cleared it out a bit - removing old songs tht I no longer sing. There are 137 left. Each with notes about Key, writer, intro detail, and arrangement notes.

I have another similar file with about the same number which is the one I use(d) for my erstwhile bluegrass band and my trio. Admittedly some songs are in both, but arrangements will differ.

I have a two door filing cabinet which is full of many more.

There is, however, something of a skill to using cheat sheets of any kind. and I frequently see it used and mis-used at my club.

I have my music stand at about waist height and to the left. I don't "Read" every word of the song and whilst I have noted the changes my hands have a far better memory than my voice.

I "glance" down to remind me of the next verse, or who takes the next break or thinks like a stop, or note about a harmony piece.

Some people I know place their cheat sheets in front of them obscuring their faces and/or guitar playing from the audience, that is wrong. I sing and play to and for my audience. The cheat sheets are merely my "prompt".

I used to act a bit and in some plays I had a lot to learn, and one has to know the other folks' lines too to know your cues (or to cover if someone else forgets! - it happens!)

So if you are a pro who does the same act every night, yes it will become second nature, although many of those big stars will have cues on big screens in front of the stage.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by Rickenbacker1

I play acoustic open mic several times a month and play a gig now and then. Last week I was in one of the local restaurants/ bar listening to a duo . The duo had an I pad in front of them and they read music from the I pad . I believe if you are going to play out don’t use an I pad or sheet music ……learn the song to me this doesn’t look professional . What do you guys think ?

so, you are going to remember everything regarding the 45 / 50 songs you'll play in a 3 / 4 hour gig?

all the words?
all key changes?
all chord changes?

good luck with that.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by rmp

so, you are going to remember everything regarding the 45 / 50 songs you'll play in a 3 / 4 hour gig?

all the words?
all key changes?
all chord changes?

good luck with that.

Mmm... I've only been singing with guitar for 3 years now and I have 25 to 30 songs that I can just pick up guitar and play / sing. So I can't see 40 to 50 being a problem over time. But I had deliberately decided from the get go to work on learning songs by heart. I've worked in a band where the lyrics folder was on a stand, and just didn't want to go down that root myself.

I can't remember Paul McCartney flicking through a folder at Glastonbury last weekend. And that was a long set. And he's 80.