The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-16-2020, 12:20 PM
gmel555 gmel555 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Lower Slower Delaware
Posts: 2,776
Default Analog to DI Converter from TB-12 Tonebeast to iMac/Logic Pro

For years I've been using a hardware based DAW BOSS 1600 digital recorder for producing my own original recordings, but am FINALLY going to migrate to computer based DAW (in my case Logic ProX). I'm currently very happy with a WA TB-12 ToneBeast Pre-Amp which runs right into the BOSS which has an internal analog to digital converter.

I'm looking for ideas on purchasing an Ana to Dig converter that can run directly into my iMac/Logic Pro from the TB-12. Since Im very happy with the TB-12 output my thinking is I just need a clean/accurate conversion without adding additional "color". I have an opportunity to buy a very lightly used Apogee Duet III (for iPad & Mac) from a good friend at a very good price. I do multi-tracking so the Duet may not have low enough latency to work for me. An alternative is to get a new/newer, ApogeeOne, Apogee Element or another brand that's similar...? Apogee's are pricey, so maybe there are lower cost alternatives?

Does this sound like the right -or at a least good- option or am I missing/forgetting something? Thanks in advance.
__________________
“The tapestry of life is more important than a single thread.”
R. Daneel Olivaw in I. Asimov's Robots and Empire.

Last edited by gmel555; 11-16-2020 at 01:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-16-2020, 01:14 PM
keith.rogers's Avatar
keith.rogers keith.rogers is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,694
Default

Well, I'd ask your good friend to let you try the thing out for a week and if it works, just buy it so you can get familiar with everything else, and really figure out what you need, if anything, for future use, and plan that purchase with more knowledge.

Current interfaces A/D converters simply don't add color.

The Julian Krause guy on YouTube does really good reviews of audio hardware, though I haven't seen if he covers the esoteric stuff, he does include Apogee boxes in his testing.

Latency is generally only a problem (IME on even an old Mini) if you have a lot of plugins, and Logic has a Low Latency check box in the record menu which does a pretty good job of disabling those when recording. And, the usual things of freezing existing tracks (i.e., the ones already recorded) you are playing along to always helps.

The latency I saw was on a 2012 Mini and a Firewire interface.

I updated early this year to a refurb iMac with a bunch more cores and faster i5, and a USB 3.0 interface. No latency at all, whether I remember to click the low-latency option or not. If you are shopping for something new, I'd look for USB 3/C connectivity and speed if it doesn't bust your budget. (Options were really limited at one point - don't know if they've improved, but I was not looking at higher tier products, and needed something that was available, so I got to choose between 1 or 0 models....)
__________________
"I know in the morning that it's gonna be good, when I stick out my elbows and they don't bump wood." - Bill Kirchen
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-16-2020, 04:02 PM
gmel555 gmel555 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Lower Slower Delaware
Posts: 2,776
Default

Thanks Keith. I imagine my latency concerns are not well founded anymore with newer equipment, and I do have an iMac w USB 3.0. I can tryout the Duet, though my friend is in another state and would have to ship it to me. Still worth the $10 or so to give it a try.
__________________
“The tapestry of life is more important than a single thread.”
R. Daneel Olivaw in I. Asimov's Robots and Empire.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-19-2020, 10:32 PM
Marshall Marshall is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NW Suburban Chicago
Posts: 2,617
Default

The iRig Pro has good reviews. I bought one. I'm just in the baby steps of making it work. But it looks promising. I really want to use it to get microphone audio while making videos. I also bought a Sony a6600 camera for videos. Just getting familiar with that for video taking as well.

The iRig will take 2 mics (condenser even) and convert to digital and input into a Mac or PC. I have a little finagling to do to input it into the Sony camera. But I figured out a way to make that happen yesterday. It was just an experiment. Next week I'll make a video with the whole rig.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-20-2020, 12:06 AM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

The main reason why I recently purchased an Audient ID44; it is the only interface that I know of that has Pre and Post Returns on Two of their four channels.
Like you...I do not want anything interfering with and outboard preamp(which I am about to purchase).
By feeding your preamp outs into the Returns only on the ID44, you will bypass completely the line and mic electronics of the ID44.
With that being said, many will say that going into the line level of most interfaces is nearly the same. But being an old guy with and old school mentality I liked the features of this unit. Regardless of how straight forward this unit is...you still have to deal with learning the Internal ID mixer, which is all about getting the signal back to your headphones or speakers. Lots of routing options that takes time to learn. You can find a tiny bit of a discount on these units. They retail for $699
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-20-2020, 09:04 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
The main reason why I recently purchased an Audient ID44; it is the only interface that I know of that has Pre and Post Returns on Two of their four channels.
Like you...I do not want anything interfering with and outboard preamp(which I am about to purchase).
By feeding your preamp outs into the Returns only on the ID44, you will bypass completely the line and mic electronics of the ID44.
With that being said, many will say that going into the line level of most interfaces is nearly the same. But being an old guy with and old school mentality I liked the features of this unit. Regardless of how straight forward this unit is...you still have to deal with learning the Internal ID mixer, which is all about getting the signal back to your headphones or speakers. Lots of routing options that takes time to learn. You can find a tiny bit of a discount on these units. They retail for $699
Disclaimer I am not an a formally trained electrical engineer . so grain of salt and I could be mistaken, BUT

That said I think (if I am understanding the difference between mic and line level input correctly ) as far as mic and line level inputs on a typical interface and what channel sends and returns do.
I think the only "electronics" you are actually bypassing by connecting your outboard preamp to the return jack, is the "pre amp" circuit itself on the interface . You are still feeding into the "line in'' analog circuit because that is the level input you are using . Which then goes to the A/D electronics. Which is I believe exactly what the TRS portion of the combi- XLR, or the 1/4 line inputs do on interfaces since there is no reason to feed a line level input into a mic pre given what it does is bring the mic output level up to line level ...

I think the only thing the analog sends and returns on the interface channels actually do, is allow the analog input signal to pass out to an outboard piece of gear and back in to the "line in" circuit , without first going to the DAW and thru the AD and DA conversion. At least that is my understanding of the signal flow situation .
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-20-2020 at 09:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-20-2020, 09:10 AM
gmel555 gmel555 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Lower Slower Delaware
Posts: 2,776
Default

Thanks to all for your thoughts and suggestions. Still researching and it all helps! Regarding Knives&Guitars comment about by-passing the front end elements of the converter and also KevWind's reply. I understand both comments/thoughts but I am also not an electronics wiz. I never would have thought about using the Send Return to by-pass the "front end" (pre-amp) of the converter, but it sounds interesting. Kev, I think Knives is saying that by-passing the pre-amp stage of the converter is exactly what he (and I) are looking to do because we'll be using an analog pre- before the converter and don't want to add another pre-amp into the signal chain. I'm sure a call or note to a given mfg'er could answer the question and wonder if the answer might vary from converter to converter depending on where in the internal signal the send return "enters". (I'm sounding like a geek here now).
__________________
“The tapestry of life is more important than a single thread.”
R. Daneel Olivaw in I. Asimov's Robots and Empire.

Last edited by gmel555; 11-20-2020 at 09:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-20-2020, 10:02 AM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Disclaimer I am not an a formally trained electrical engineer . so grain of salt and I could be mistaken, BUT

That said I think (if I am understanding the difference between mic and line level input correctly ) as far as mic and line level inputs on a typical interface and what channel sends and returns do.
I think the only "electronics" you are actually bypassing by connecting your outboard preamp to the return jack, is the "pre amp" circuit itself on the interface . You are still feeding into the "line in'' analog circuit because that is the level input you are using . Which then goes to the A/D electronics. Which is I believe exactly what the TRS portion of the combi- XLR, or the 1/4 line inputs do on interfaces since there is no reason to feed a line level input into a mic pre given what it does is bring the mic output level up to line level ..
I think the only thing the analog sends and returns on the interface channels actually do, is allow the analog input signal to pass out to an outboard piece of gear and back in to the "line in" circuit , without first going to the DAW and thru the AD and DA conversion. At least that is my understanding of the signal flow situation .
Audient told me that Yes, indeed I would be totally bypassing the Line in-line level electronics, by going solely into the return inputs on this unit. I had several verbal discussions with Audient Directly via email...and the by direct Phone call to England with them.
That was my whole reason- basis of purchasing this particular unit. Anyway, that is what they told me. What is total sum of routing going on electronically in the unit...well there may be other factors? There always is other factors and debates as to what is effecting what electronically.
I am about to Purchase a John Hardy M2 mic preamp. Speaking of electronic knowledge, Oh my...around 40 years of real time experience. I spent two hours on the phone with him a couple of days ago. A special feature on the M2 unit is an optional 20 ohm switch that was developed solely for the use with Schoeps microphones.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-20-2020, 12:22 PM
gmel555 gmel555 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Lower Slower Delaware
Posts: 2,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
[INDENT] [I]\
I am about to Purchase a John Hardy M2 mic preamp. Speaking of electronic knowledge, Oh my...around 40 years of real time experience. I spent two hours on the phone with him a couple of days ago. A special feature on the M2 unit is an optional 20 ohm switch that was developed solely for the use with Schoeps microphones.
Coincidence...I just ordered a Hardy 990c+ op amp to replace the stock op amp in my Warm Audio Tone Beast. I've started to focus on the Apogee Element 24 for two reasons, 1) it is said to be very transparent/clean & accurate, and 2) it integrates almost seamlessly with Logic Pro to the point of not needing two virtual "console/mixer" views, just the LP X console. Sound quality is critical to me but ease of use/learning as I get up and running on LP is a factor. Still, your point on how you use the Audient ID44 has peaked my interest. Thanks, always good to have understandable options.
__________________
“The tapestry of life is more important than a single thread.”
R. Daneel Olivaw in I. Asimov's Robots and Empire.

Last edited by gmel555; 11-20-2020 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-20-2020, 12:55 PM
keith.rogers's Avatar
keith.rogers keith.rogers is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,694
Default

If the LINE IN option on your interface is part of a combo jack and has a gain control, you can assume it's going through the same circuitry as the mic/XLR input. If you have LINE IN jacks (prob TRS) with no gain control (in hardware or a host s/w app) it's much more likely that you'll have only A/D happening.

With that, though, most good good interfaces these days have preamps with negligible noise and effectively dead flat curves. FI, I just grabbed the Focusrite 6i6 manual - one that I was looking at but couldn't buy. Every input, mic/inst/line, is spec'd at 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.1dB. Line inputs are all THD+N<.002% (whether through a combo jack or TRS). Mic THD+N is less! Nobody can hear those differences.
__________________
"I know in the morning that it's gonna be good, when I stick out my elbows and they don't bump wood." - Bill Kirchen
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-20-2020, 01:00 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

I see now that the Audient does not have dedicated 1/4 TRS line in inputs, they are all Combo XLR mic/line inputs, so I I can see that "return" jacks would bypass those combo input circuits . Thats great but I was simply saying that any interface that has dedicated line in TRS jacks will do the same thing .
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-20-2020 at 01:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-20-2020, 02:37 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmel555 View Post
Coincidence...I just ordered a Hardy 990c+ op amp to replace the stock op amp in my Warm Audio Tone Beast. I've started to focus on the Apogee Element 24 for two reasons, 1) it is said to be very transparent/clean & accurate, and 2) it integrates almost seamlessly with Logic Pro to the point of not needing two virtual "console/mixer" views, just the LP X console. Sound quality is critical to me but ease of use/learning as I get up and running on LP is a factor. Still, your point on how you use the Audient ID44 has peaked my interest. Thanks, always good to have understandable options.
I too am very impressed with Apogee internal preamps.

Last edited by AcousticDreams; 11-20-2020 at 02:37 PM. Reason: added
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=