brightness/warmth measurement - Page 3

printer2 · #31 03-17-2021, 02:05 PM

As Alan said the time domain is important. What if one guitar has a bright attack and the other one more sustain in the treble? Which one is brighter, you could sum the frequencies and get an average number. Will that one tell you which is brighter. Please excuse the plot being of a bass. I would like to see a plot done on some popular guitars.

jjhturbo · #32 03-17-2021, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

As Alan said the time domain is important. What if one guitar has a bright attack and the other one more sustain in the treble? Which one is brighter, you could sum the frequencies and get an average number. Will that one tell you which is brighter. Please excuse the plot being of a bass. I would like to see a plot done on some popular guitars.

Very well put. This is the essence of what I'm after. Would definitely be interesting to compare the frequency sum between various guitars, if that could indeed correlate to an objective measurement of warmth/brightness.

jpmist · #33 03-18-2021, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

As Alan said the time domain is important. What if one guitar has a bright attack and the other one more sustain in the treble? Which one is brighter, you could sum the frequencies and get an average number. Will that one tell you which is brighter. Please excuse the plot being of a bass. I would like to see a plot done on some popular guitars.

Nice graphic! Can you share what it's called and what program was used? I have a handy audio editor with all kinds of spectrum, sonogram, waveform, & oscilloscope options I know little about but would like to dabble. Like you I see no reason why our subjective perceptions of "warmth" and "bright" can't be quantified.

printer2 · #34 03-18-2021, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpmist

Nice graphic! Can you share what it's called and what program was used? I have a handy audio editor with all kinds of spectrum, sonogram, waveform, & oscilloscope options I know little about but would like to dabble. Like you I see no reason why our subjective perceptions of "warmth" and "bright" can't be quantified.

Look up waterfall plots. Usually it is the audiophile guys doing their rooms that do this kind of stuff. I just pulled the picture out of the either. One day I would like to do something like this but only so many hours in a day.

jaymarsch · #35 03-18-2021, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrumChi

After years of talking shop with many guitarists, I've figured out that everyone's ears and brains are different. That you consider warm or bright, might be something else to someone else. Just play whatever sounds good to you.

This has been my experience. I know what warm vs bright or overtones vs fundamental vs clear vs muddy vs brash vs strident vs lush is for me but as soon as another set of ears, hands, and minds are entered into the equation, all bets are off on any consensus.

Best,
Jayne

jjhturbo · #36 03-18-2021, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

This has been my experience. I know what warm vs bright or overtones vs fundamental vs clear vs muddy vs brash vs strident vs lush is for me but as soon as another set of ears, hands, and minds are entered into the equation, all bets are off on any consensus.

Best,
Jayne

Right, completely understand this. The question here is to quantify what makes a particular guitar sound differently than another (e.g. what exactly makes a Martin sound so different from a Taylor). Whatever adjectives someone uses to describe a Martin or Taylor is secondary, and not the question at hand.

printer2 · #37 03-18-2021, 03:10 PM

I want to know what makes the Gibson thump. the heck with Taylors.

jjhturbo · #38 03-18-2021, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

I want to know what makes the Gibson thump. the heck with Taylors.

Haha....I'm not here to ruffle any feathers. Between you and me, I'm not a particular fan of either Martin or Taylor, but just using them as examples since they are well-known and have characteristically distinct tones.

printer2 · #39 03-18-2021, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhturbo

Haha....I'm not here to ruffle any feathers. Between you and me, I'm not a particular fan of either Martin or Taylor, but just using them as examples since they are well-known and have characteristically distinct tones.

So you are a Gibson man then.

Alan Carruth · #40 03-18-2021, 04:47 PM

jjhturbo wrote:
"The question here is to quantify what makes a particular guitar sound differently than another (e.g. what exactly makes a Martin sound so different from a Taylor). "

That should be simple enough in theory; all you need is a hundred or so of each brand and the ability to run fairly complete tests in reasonably controlled conditions. Data gathering should not take more than a couple of months per brand, and then you can move on to analysis...

Actually, one of the most important tests would be 'blind' listening comparisons to be sure that there really is a consistent difference between, say, Martin and Taylor, that listeners can pick out.

Brucebubs · #41 03-18-2021, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

I want this image on a black T-shirt please.

Howard Emerson · #42 03-19-2021, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhturbo

Is there a tool that can be used to objectively measure a guitar's brightness/warmth? Sorry, this may be a dumb question -- but I am not a sound expert. Just trying to see if I can do a side by side objective comparison of various guitars and/or strings.

Not sure if it's as simple as taking measurements on a frequency meter.

It really can NOT be objective for a pretty simple reason: You're the one playing, listening and experiencing said guitar.

It's always going to be a subjective thing, and THAT is what it's all about.

You use bare flesh, or you use plastic fingerpicks, or you use a thin pick, or you use coated strings, etc, etc, etc.

I don't know what your ultimate aim is, but if it's comparing 2 guitars to help you make a choice between the two, it's still going to come down to you, and your ears, and your hands.

Oh......and it's really a waste of time, ultimately, to have someone else play them for you to listen to because you're not going to be sitting in the same place when you're actually play it.

Howard Emerson

printer2 · #43 03-19-2021, 04:29 PM

Only a waste of time if you do not get anything out of it. I would like to know more of what makes one guitar sound different than the other. Obviously you should start at the extremes rather than guitars that are similar to each other. May not be of much use for the consumer but academically it would be interesting.

merlin666 · #44 03-19-2021, 05:50 PM

I prefer guitars that have a bright warmth as opposed to those that have a dull harshness. To measure the frequency characteristics of a top a device called vibrometer can be used. This was pioneered by Ovation in the 70s when they had access to vibrometers that were used in the production of helicopter rotors. All their high end Adamas models included a vibrometer plot of the top's response, and they could tell from the plot how the guitar sounded. This was high tech stuff at the time, and these guitars sold in the same price range as Martin D45s.

Plots of the preproduction guitars are published here: http://www.ovationtribute.com/Adamas...ter_Plots.html

Guitarplayer_PR · #45 03-19-2021, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhturbo

Is there a tool that can be used to objectively measure a guitar's brightness/warmth? Sorry, this may be a dumb question -- but I am not a sound expert. Just trying to see if I can do a side by side objective comparison of various guitars and/or strings.

Not sure if it's as simple as taking measurements on a frequency meter.

There's a problem: I don't think brightness and warmth are opposites at all