Please Help ID this Ryoji Matsuoka guitar model and wood

nvilletele · #1 05-08-2011, 05:09 PM

In 1985 or 1986 I acquired this Ryoji Matsuoka classical guitar from a friend when I was living in Japan. The model number on the label is rather faded, but it seems to be M20. The serial number is more clearly visible: 24132. Inside where the neck joins you can see 831114. I don't know what year this is from, though clearly has to be earlier than 85 . . . .

According to one frequently quoted (on this topic) internet blogger:

During the early 1970s, Matsuoka produced Fleta, Hauser, Kohno and Rubio (David, not GV Rubio) models. From 1975 to 1980 the company produced their own line of guitars: the concert, artist and artisan series.

The Concert series includes the M20 ( lam spruce top, nato neck), M30 (solid spruce top, mahogany neck), M40 (solid spruce top, mahogany neck). All 3 models have laminated rosewood back and sides and rosewood fingerboards.

The Artist Series includes the M50 and M60. These guitars have better quality spruce tops, laminated Jacaranda back and sides, and ebony fingerboards

The Old World Artisan Series includes the M70 and M80, which had a one-piece classic guitar neck and I believe laminated rosewood back and sides.

During the 1980s and early 1990s, Matsuoka models included the M300, MH200, M150, M100, M80 and M60. I know that the M300, and MH 200 had solid rosewood back and sides. I believe (but I am not sure) that the M150 had solid rosewood back and sides. The M80, and M60 had laminated rosewood back and sides.

While I do not especially doubt that the label says M20 (though anything is possible, as in addition to being quite faded, there are many "age spots" on the label as well), I find the look of the wood quite different than any of the "laminated rosewood" models (M20, M30 and M40) models I have seen pics of. Does this look like rosewood back and sides to anyone? If not, what do you think it might be? It just doesnt look anything like rosewood to me, and while any wood's appearance varies from piece to piece, this amount of variation would surprise me.

And how about the fretboard? I know its hard to tell from pics, but it is so dark and from the feel I wonder if it actually might be ebony. Or I suppose it could simply be "ebonized" (i.e., darkened) rosewood. I kind doubt it''s ebony, but again there is just enough reason to not be really certain. It feels like it could possibly be ebony though.

The back/sides are, I am pretty sure, laminated. But I am not so sure about the top . . . looking at the edge in the soundhole, it seems solid. Still, not completely certain.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or information concerning this or other Ryoji Matsuoka models.

sneaky · #2 05-08-2011, 07:01 PM

you could watch Yahoo Japan and look at the Matsuoka auctions, those guitars are very common here, see how sellers list theirs. Can`t tell anything about the top from the pics provided. I have seen them with different labels too.
Not sure if Kohno was connected to this company or not, I thought they were independent...do see some of theirs around too only they sell for much more money than the one pictured here...which looks like mahogany to me.

nvilletele · #3 05-08-2011, 09:19 PM

I also was thinking maybe this one is mahogany, but as I am not much of an expert, I wasn't too sure. Never saw any mention of any mahogany M20's, but then again it's not like one can really rely much on a few internet forum posts and blogs . . . .

gltr · #4 05-09-2011, 01:28 AM

That has got to be a type of mahogany, or maybe Nato. The dark grain around the sound hole will run all the way through to the underside of the top if the soundboard is solid.

sneaky · #5 05-09-2011, 04:12 AM

heres one on line in Japan now that looks to be rosewood...

http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/j...ion/s223830819

sneaky · #6 05-09-2011, 04:19 AM

another...different label...

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f98041688

nvilletele · #7 05-09-2011, 02:47 PM

Hey Sneaky . . . thanks for the info/pics.
Btw, by any chance, you go by the moniker Sneakyjapan over at TDPRI?

nvilletele · #8 05-09-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gltr

That has got to be a type of mahogany, or maybe Nato. The dark grain around the sound hole will run all the way through to the underside of the top if the soundboard is solid.

So far as I can tell, it does, so I think the top is sold. But back/sides do appear to be laminated.

sneaky · #9 05-09-2011, 07:34 PM

....yes......

sneaky · #10 05-10-2011, 10:53 PM

this seller says he bought this one around 1970...

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/147794597

kaitunes · #11 10-22-2011, 04:08 PM

Hi - My opinion is that this guitar was made in 1983 (Going from the stamp on the neck block. I've got a number of Matsuoka guitars and the lowest number I have stamped on the neck block is 74 - I also have a 77, 78, 81 and 83. I have a couple which aren't stamped on the neck block though - one of which has ano: 1973 on the label in the sound hole. Nearly all the Matsuokas i've seen have been rosewood back/sides apart from the M30F which is maple. Yours certainly does look like mahogany back/sides - unusual! It looks like the fret board is ebony which to me suggests an M30 or higher rather than an M20. (That's speculation on my part to some degree though!). Hope that helps!

More details on Matsuoka guitars here:
http://www.kaitunes.com/guitars/acou..._matsuoka.html

kaitunes · #12 10-22-2011, 04:18 PM

I think i've got it! It looks like this M25
http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/j...225#enlargeimg

You don't see the '5' numbers that often. They normally seen to have the blue print on the labels too.

mbechmann · #13 03-21-2015, 04:43 PM

I just stumbled upon this thread. That guitar is VERY interesting.

Have anybody seen this dual serial number thing before?

The reason I am asking is that the heel serial number looks a LOT like a Yamaki number. If that is the case, this is proof that Yamaki for a time sold guitars parts. I had head that they did, but this seems to be proof.

As for dating your guitar. I think your neck is late 83, sold by Yamaki in early 84, build into a guitar in late 84 by Ryoji Matsuoka. That would fit the time frame and the 2 serial numbers.

So the question is: How many Ryoji Matsuoka have dual serial numbers?

FrankHS · #14 03-22-2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nvilletele

...I'd appreciate any thoughts or information concerning this or other Ryoji Matsuoka models.

Can't comment on your guitar, but I have a Matsuoka M-30, and it also has a serial number on the heel block as well as another number on the label. It's a fine guitar, especially for what I paid--$300. Solid cedar top, and nice striped rosewood lam back. The sound is equal to the Cordoba C-10 I have, at 3X that price. I bought the M30 accepting cosmetic problems (so far inconsequential) such as two cracks in top next to where the where the fretboard intersects the top. (Today I would sell the M30 for same price.)