Dazzo vs. K&K, Trance and Schatten.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

TESA 4965 is 0.2 mm thick (0.008")

That's thinner than Trance tape by .001" as it is .009" thick.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Agreed. But, part of me thinks that the tape contributes to the poor results requiring so many attempts. Chicken or egg?

Possible, hard to say. But with K&K's you'll never know if they could sound better moved over slightly (unless you're willing to go to a lot of work, and probably go thru lots of pickups). Trance used to use glue, and I had several installed that way. I think the tape actually sounds better. Even with the glue, Trance pickups were notorious for taking a lot of effort to find the sweet spot. With Teddy's approach to gluing, when he installs, he actually moves the pickup around while the glue is still wet, listening to the sound with a couple of strings on. So part of the better sound is that he finds the sweet spot for each specific guitar and pickup on the fly - and he'll try multiple pickups that way as well. If he's not hearing what he wants with a 60, he'll try a 70 and so on. James May's ultratonic is another interesting approach to fine-tuning the pickup, not by position, but by phase adjustment after the fact.

I just had a chat with Teddy an hour ago, he seems pretty excited by the results he's getting with tape now...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Possible, hard to say. But with K&K's you'll never know if they could sound better moved over slightly (unless you're willing to go to a lot of work, and probably go thru lots of pickups). Trance used to use glue, and I had several installed that way. I think the tape actually sounds better. Even with the glue, Trance pickups were notorious for taking a lot of effort to find the sweet spot. With Teddy's approach to gluing, when he installs, he actually moves the pickup around while the glue is still wet, listening to the sound with a couple of strings on. So part of the better sound is that he finds the sweet spot for each specific guitar and pickup on the fly - and he'll try multiple pickups that way as well. If he's not hearing what he wants with a 60, he'll try a 70 and so on. James May's ultratonic is another interesting approach to fine-tuning the pickup, not by position, but by phase adjustment after the fact.



I just had a chat with Teddy an hour ago, he seems pretty excited by the results he's getting with tape now...

I guess we have seen the future. And the future is some double sided tape. Let the consequence free experimentation begin! That is... as soon as I pry these glued in pickups off my bridge plate. LOL

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I guess we have seen the future. And the future is some double sided tape. Let the consequence free experimentation begin! That is... as soon as I pry these glued in pickups off my bridge plate. LOL

That last part made me chuckle.

Razor blade. Use a teeter totter motion, not a prying motion. Make sure that the blade is indeed in between the pickup and the bridge plate. It will pop easily off. I use epoxy remover in gel form. I dab a little on the epoxy. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Reapply after a few minutes. Take your razor blade and gently scrape the epoxy. It will come off in flaky chunks and bee almost white in color. Then take medium/fine sandpaper block and sand until smooth. It usually takes me no more than a minute or two of sanding. When I am done, the bridge plate has no evidence of having the Dazzos attached.

I am going to do the process of switching to tape this summer so I will be doing this on three guitars when he has finished his experimenting and settled on a tape that he likes best. Good luck.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

That last part made me chuckle.



Razor blade. Use a teeter totter motion, not a prying motion. Make sure that the blade is indeed in between the pickup and the bridge plate. It will pop easily off. I use epoxy remover in gel form. I dab a little on the epoxy. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Reapply after a few minutes. Take your razor blade and gently scrape the epoxy. It will come off in flaky chunks and bee almost white in color. Then take medium/fine sandpaper block and sand until smooth. It usually takes me no more than a minute or two of sanding. When I am done, the bridge plate has no evidence of having the Dazzos attached.



I am going to do the process of switching to tape this summer so I will be doing this on three guitars when he has finished his experimenting and settled on a tape that he likes best. Good luck.

Perfect explanation. For now, I quite like how they sound, so I’m inclined to leave well enough alone. But by summer I’ll probably be following your lead. A bunch of taped Dazzo threads will inspire me.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Perfect explanation. For now, I quite like how they sound, so I’m inclined to leave well enough alone. But by summer I’ll probably be following your lead. A bunch of taped Dazzo threads will inspire me.

Keep in mind that at least with the Trance pickup/tape, you can't really install over previous glue. Maury has said he was able to sand down a bridge plate enough to make it work, but I'm not sure I'd do that. Gary Hull at Trance said it was impractical for at least superglue, since it soaks into the wood. Not sure about the glue Teddy recommends, I haven't tried that. (I have tried installing a Trance over a previous K&K install - didn't work well at all.) So if you have a glued in pickup and like it, I'd leave it alone. There's at least a chance that the only SBT replacement you could do would be another using glue.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Keep in mind that at least with the Trance pickup/tape, you can't really install over previous glue. Maury has said he was able to sand down a bridge plate enough to make it work, but I'm not sure I'd do that. Gary Hull at Trance said it was impractical for at least superglue, since it soaks into the wood. Not sure about the glue Teddy recommends, I haven't tried that. (I have tried installing a Trance over a previous K&K install - didn't work well at all.) So if you have a glued in pickup and like it, I'd leave it alone. There's at least a chance that the only SBT replacement you could do would be another using glue.

That really made my day! Now I can forget the whole mess. Ignorance is bliss. :-)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

That really made my day! Now I can forget the whole mess. Ignorance is bliss. :-)

This is another reason I dislike glue, at least superglue. Yes, it's possible to remove glued in pickups. But the impact is a bit more permanent than it appears. You'd want to be sure you're going to be happy with the pickup before the glue goes on. People say SBTs are non-invasive compared to other pickups, and they can be, but superglue soaking into the bridge plate sounds pretty invasive to me.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This is another reason I dislike glue, at least superglue. Yes, it's possible to remove glued in pickups. But the impact is a bit more permanent than it appears. You'd want to be sure you're going to be happy with the pickup before the glue goes on. People say SBTs are non-invasive compared to other pickups, and they can be, but superglue soaking into the bridge plate sounds pretty invasive to me.

True, but non invasive can also mean transparent to acoustic tone of the instrument. To that extent SBTs have advantages. You’ve forgotten more about this topic than we’ve collectively learned. So, I have no choice but to agree. The glue residue is some level of concern for me too. However, I don’t have any irreplaceable instruments. They’re all players instruments. So, a few battle scars and glue residue comes with the territory I guess.

Cheers!

[Petty1818]

I think after having use the HFN with putty and tape, I have come to the conclusion that most SBT's will sound fine with tape, it's just a matter of finding the right kind of tape for specific pickups. I used to think that the less adhesive between the pickup and soundboard, the better the tone would be. However, with the HFN, I actually prefer the pickup to have a bit of the putty/tape between it and the soundboard. Too close and the pickup becomes harsh. I found that with the Amulet as well. The tape is so thin that the transducers are close but they give an electric type of tone to them.

I want to try installing the Amulet with the Schatten tape. I actually once tried a quick putty install with the Amulet and although my placement was off (I just stuck them in), I felt as though the tone was a bit woodier and less hi-fi.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think after having use the HFN with putty and tape, I have come to the conclusion that most SBT's will sound fine with tape, it's just a matter of finding the right kind of tape for specific pickups. I used to think that the less adhesive between the pickup and soundboard, the better the tone would be. However, with the HFN, I actually prefer the pickup to have a bit of the putty/tape between it and the soundboard. Too close and the pickup becomes harsh. I found that with the Amulet as well. The tape is so thin that the transducers are close but they give an electric type of tone to them.

I want to try installing the Amulet with the Schatten tape. I actually once tried a quick putty install with the Amulet and although my placement was off (I just stuck them in), I felt as though the tone was a bit woodier and less hi-fi.

Yes, I'm very curious to hear results of the Trace with putty and also the Dazzo with putty. It has all the advantages and little downside, residue wise.

[James May]

Glue shmue.

Many bridge plates are sealed, especially on higher end guitars. The superglue does not penetrate very far. I've scraped it off, I've sanded it off, I've dissolved it with acetone. I personally don't think any of that has any negative consequence.

But, if those words fail to comfort, I do understand. I was more squeamish about such things before I spent much time working with instruments.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by James May

Glue shmue.

Many bridge plates are sealed, especially on higher end guitars. The superglue does not penetrate very far. I've scraped it off, I've sanded it off, I've dissolved it with acetone. I personally don't think any of that has any negative consequence.

But, if those words fail to comfort, I do understand. I was more squeamish about such things before I spent much time working with instruments.

My concern comes from the results when I tried putting a Trance on over a previously superglued bridge. Definitely not a sound you want, even after acetone and tons of sanding. Why, I have no idea. I know PUTW even recommends smearing superglue on the bridge for better adhesion, so you'd think it would be fine. Something about the Trance tape doesn't like even a hint of superglue residue. Maybe it's unique to what they use. As I said, Gary Hull says it's not going to work. Maury says he's sanded down a bridge plate enough to make it work. I'd rather play than spend that much time sanding :-)

[James May]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My concern comes from the results when I tried putting a Trance on over a previously superglued bridge. Definitely not a sound you want, even after acetone and tons of sanding. Why, I have no idea. I know PUTW even recommends smearing superglue on the bridge for better adhesion, so you'd think it would be fine. Something about the Trance tape doesn't like even a hint of superglue residue. Maybe it's unique to what they use. As I said, Gary Hull says it's not going to work. Maury says he's sanded down a bridge plate enough to make it work. I'd rather play than spend that much time sanding :-)

That's a fair point Doug.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by James May

Glue shmue.

Many bridge plates are sealed, especially on higher end guitars. The superglue does not penetrate very far. I've scraped it off, I've sanded it off, I've dissolved it with acetone. I personally don't think any of that has any negative consequence.

But, if those words fail to comfort, I do understand. I was more squeamish about such things before I spent much time working with instruments.

Thanks James. The voice of experience. I feel the same way. I have never seen adverse effects of glue or in my case, epoxy.