The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:08 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
FWIW, Gryphon has been installing Dazzo's with tape for a long time. Teddy has also been experimenting with tape for some time, and I recently got a hint that he may be starting to have some success.


Doug,

What’s your take on the great sound board transducer debate? Do we have a winner or a multi-way tie? :-)
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:51 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Doug,

What’s your take on the great sound board transducer debate? Do we have a winner or a multi-way tie? :-)
Probably a tie :-) If only because very guitar is different, every player is different. I have a few guitars where the Trance sounds great, one at the moment where the Dazzo is really great, a couple where the K&Ks seems to work better. That's ignoring Schatten, McIntyre, Pickup-The-World and a slew of others that also work well for many people.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:14 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Probably a tie :-) If only because very guitar is different, every player is different. I have a few guitars where the Trance sounds great, one at the moment where the Dazzo is really great, a couple where the K&Ks seems to work better. That's ignoring Schatten, McIntyre, Pickup-The-World and a slew of others that also work well for many people.
My level of experience can't hold a candle to Doug's, not even close, but I have now used multiple of each of K&K, BGM Elevation, Trance and Schatten and one use of a Dazzo.

I'll exclude the Dazzo from the results as I suspect I had an atypical experience with them and should try again on another guitar.

Tone wise, the Schatten wins for me. I really love the Trance, but it has a slight electric overtone that the Schatten doesn't have. I really like the K&K sound and output, but the other two are higher fidelity by a good stretch, to my ear.

I love how non invasive the Schatten and Trance are: no glue of any kind. Tape and putty, phantom powered if you want. I love that the Schatten is also passive for those who want the minimalist option.

I'll also confess that SBT's are highly subject to a complex set of factors - location, bridge plate material and density, top responsiveness, so it really is a YMMV situation, but all things equal for me, it is :

1) Schatten
2) Trance
3) K&K and its derivatives.
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:23 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
Tone wise, the Schatten wins for me. I really love the Trance, but it has a slight electric overtone that the Schatten doesn't have. I really like the K&K sound and output, but the other two are higher fidelity by a good stretch, to my ear.
ToneDexter of course can get rid of the "electric" sound. Adding a mic as a second source also goes a long way toward making any of these sound more realistic (at the cost of more feedback-sensitivity).
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:33 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
ToneDexter of course can get rid of the "electric" sound. Adding a mic as a second source also goes a long way toward making any of these sound more realistic (at the cost of more feedback-sensitivity).
Yes, no doubt! We own a ToneDexter and I'm also getting some great results with a Line 6 HX Effects which allows custom IRs to be loaded. Not as easy as a TD, but the eq, gain and blend customization of the Line 6 makes the IR options really strong.
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:49 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,873
Default

Ahhh the long long long SBT debate. I've tried most of them over the years and can say they're all workable. The Schatten HFN wins easily for me. No superglue or epoxy to worry about and it sounds enough like a mic on it's own. That putty they provide makes for a very simple install with a great bond and you can tweak to your hearts desire without removing and reinstalling the pickup, something tape can't do either.

To each their own though. I for one will never install another pickup again that can't be installed with putty or tape.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:53 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
Ahhh the long long long SBT debate. I've tried most of them over the years and can say they're all workable. The Schatten HFN wins easily for me. No superglue or epoxy to worry about and it sounds enough like a mic on it's own. That putty they provide makes for a very simple install with a great bond and you can tweak to your hearts desire without removing and reinstalling the pickup, something tape can't do either.

To each their own though. I for one will never install another pickup again that can't be installed with putty or tape.
This has become my conclusion after installing 2 Schatten PUs.
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-01-2019, 04:36 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
This has become my conclusion after installing 2 Schatten PUs.
Yes I hear ya. I've done 3 installs so far myself, super easy. The guitars sound great amplified with the HFN. My last install gave me some grief. Turns out it wasn't the pickups fault though. I won't get into the nitty gritty here but I got it all worked out. I also dual sourced that guitar with Schatten's UST with the Artist preamp. That too gave me some grief which also wasn't the pickups fault. It's a nice setup. HFN for hopefully everything but the UST is there for emergency!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-01-2019, 05:19 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
Yes I hear ya. I've done 3 installs so far myself, super easy. The guitars sound great amplified with the HFN. My last install gave me some grief. Turns out it wasn't the pickups fault though. I won't get into the nitty gritty here but I got it all worked out. I also dual sourced that guitar with Schatten's UST with the Artist preamp. That too gave me some grief which also wasn't the pickups fault. It's a nice setup. HFN for hopefully everything but the UST is there for emergency!
That’s great to hear. I followed your thread on the install. It was helpful to read.

Do you use an outboard two channel preamp then? Also, is the UST soft braided like the Baggs?
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-01-2019, 06:26 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,292
Default

Steve, I can now confirm the pickup leads are indeed monophonic. Depending on how you dressed the wires and where, it could have been the source of your trouble with Dazzo. I am trying the Dazzo with a high impedance Fishman preamp. I dressed the wires and they seem to be quiet. This reminds me of my experience with PUTW.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-01-2019, 06:27 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 1,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
That’s great to hear. I followed your thread on the install. It was helpful to read.

Do you use an outboard two channel preamp then? Also, is the UST soft braided like the Baggs?
Well thanks I haven't updated that thread in a long time. I'm using the Schatten Artist plus 2 preamp which is really enough for my use. I'm usually running straight into my Fishman loudbox artist amp. That amp also cleans up a UST tone pretty good on it's own. I also have a Tonedexter which I love as well. I have some nice wavemaps for the HFN and the UST. Depending on where I'm going to play determines what gear I take.

The Schatten UST is certainly similar to the Baggs element. I'm really not a fan of the element as it does tend to impact the acoustic voice of the guitars I had it in. I'm not really a UST fan period, but they certainly have their uses. The Schatten UST can be used in a 1/8" or 3/32" saddle slot so it's a little harder to work with than the element but still pretty easy. It has some kind of coating over the section your saddle sits on. I didn't hear any difference after I installed it so I'm happy with that. I always believe any type of UST will have some effect but if I can't hear a difference I'm ok with it.

To reiterate I put that system in an Emerald X20 so I would like to think I have a excellent gigging guitar that can be played anywhere, anyhow and anyway. That's what I hope!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-02-2019, 01:02 AM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem, Or.
Posts: 2,027
Default

Got a text yesterday from Teddy and Marc of Sunnaudio. It seems they are having great results with using tape. They are experimenting with different kinds. Results aren’t better or worse, just different.
__________________
Vancebo
Husband of One, Father of Two
Worship Leader, Music Teacher
Oregon Duck Fan
Guitars by: Collings, Bourgeois, Taylor
Pickups by: Dazzo
Preamps by: Sunnaudio
Amps by: Bose (S1)
Grateful
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-02-2019, 02:09 AM
mondoslug mondoslug is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
As you know, I try and tell it like it is.


Best!
...and always much appreciated! Hope the new pickup in the new guitar's a keeper. Congrats.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:13 AM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
Got a text yesterday from Teddy and Marc of Sunnaudio. It seems they are having great results with using tape. They are experimenting with different kinds. Results aren’t better or worse, just different.
That is really encouraging to hear. If the reigning kings of SBT technology can use tape or putty for installation, it will be a game changer.
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-02-2019, 02:15 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,557
Default

Having now used the K&K, Trance and Schatten, I have come to the conclusion that all SBT style pickups will sound very similar. There are definitely small differences. I tend to find the K&K has the most low end of the three as well as mid range. The Trance is more hi-fi and the Schatten is a bit more balanced than both, which can lead to a tone that seems to be lacking in low end.

Considering the very small differences, I have to give the edge to the Schatten based on the insanely easy installation. The Trance was a serious investment for me and although I understand the love, it didn't destroy the K&K or Schatten to the point where I could justify the $300+ price tag. I do love that it uses tape though as that's a big plus.

I think we could go back and forth on all of these SBT pickups. However, if you install any one of these, take the time to get to know its strengths and weaknesses and practice dialing it in, it should work great. Go with the one that suits your needs/budget.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=