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Old 01-19-2022, 07:15 AM
Jason Cornwell Jason Cornwell is offline
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Default Pickup(s) for New Dyer HG

Hi all,

I’m looking to add electronics to my New Dyer harp guitar. Is it as “simple” as asking my luthier to install two kk pure minis, one for bass and the other for the fretted neck? That seems to be what was done on my Timberline T20.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Last edited by Jason Cornwell; 01-21-2022 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:27 AM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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I'm doing something similar to my new Timberline TH60PC. I'm will be installing Dazzos a set for each set of strings. I will be coming out with a stereo end jack and feeding that into a dual preamp Sunnaudio MS-2 so I can equalize both channels separately. My end goal after research was to have minimal stuff inside the guitar, the ability to have separate EQ, single end jack and wireless. I'm giving up wireless with this solution.

Talking with Teddy from Dazzos, he said Harp Guitars are different because the strings to the outer edge of the top will have less vibration than the strings closer to the middle. because of this and he being a perfectionist, he will manually position the pickups before permanently installing them to get the best sound. I will be having him installing the Dazzos pickups.

I know some have just wired KKs together to create a mono output, but that changes the output impedance. Sunnaudio has a internally blending preamp that you could use to keep the impedance the same, but you lose the ability to EQ the two sets of strings separately and you have a battery and other stuff inside the guitar.


If you search on the web there are many ways people are using pickups, and you can have paralysis by analysis. Good luck with your research and final decision. Congrats on your new HG!
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Old 01-21-2022, 03:41 PM
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Teleplucker Teleplucker is offline
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If you contact K&K they will make you a pickup with PWM for the neck and an undersaddle transducer for bass strings. You will need to provide them with the spacing on your bass strings.
It has a stereo output so you can use two preamps or if you use a regular mono cable you will get the guitar neck and "a lot" of bleed over from the subs. I believe the fellow at K&K is named Deter, but I might be mistaken.
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:03 AM
Jason Cornwell Jason Cornwell is offline
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Thanks for the responses! I’ve never heard of Dazzos pickups before, but they look like the same idea behind the K&Ks.

Regarding the K&Ks mini + transducer - is there an advantage to this configuration over just using 2 pure minis?

I like the idea of one stereo output. I could run them into two separate channels on my powered mixer, correct? Would I be able to connect two K&K pure minis to a stereo output?

My Timberline has two separate outputs, which means two 1/4” cables to deal with. If I could avoid that with a stereo output that would be ideal.
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:20 PM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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For more info on Dazzos you can do a search in the amplification section of AGF. I think there are as many pickups brands/types out there as there are strings including fans of each. You do see a lot of K&Ks. I'm going with Dazzos as they have worked well with my other guitars, but plenty of other solutions out there. I exchanged emails with one HG owner who had a K&K UST for each bridge and a K&K SBT spread across the two bridge. He ran each into a volume control in the guitar and then wired them all together inside the guitar.

You can wire each K&K mini to a stereo end jack. The disadvantage would be finding a TRS replacement cable when you are out playing would be difficult from a fellow musician so you need to carry a spare TRS cable with you. You could run the TRS cable into the power mixer, using a stereo to mono cable breakout unless the mixer could handle a stereo signal. In fact I was considering buying a powered mixer as I only had a single channel preamp, but was able to trade in my single channel preamp for a dual channel preamp from Sunnaudio for a little more $. This simplified my setup as the preamp as EQ on both channels, can accept a stereo signal from a TRS cable and can mix the signals. The one thing you need to be aware of is if the mixer had the correct input impedance.

With your Timberline you could always use a stereo to mono adapter to a single TRS cable. I don't like two end jacks.
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Old 01-23-2022, 04:11 PM
philjs philjs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleplucker View Post
...or if you use a regular mono cable you will get the guitar neck and "a lot" of bleed over from the subs.
This is exactly what I found when I installed pickups in my Timberline T30HGc. I bought two Schatten HFN passive soundboard transducers intending to put one on the guitar strings bridge plate and the other under the subs plate. But I found that I didn't need to install the one for the subs because there was more than enough signal from the subs with the single pickup on the bridge plate under the guitar saddle. I also found that running the signal into both my Bose L1c and a Behringer B1200D-PRO subwoofer (has adjustable frequency bandpass) gave me more than enough control over just the subs. YMMV.

Phil
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Old 01-26-2022, 01:35 PM
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Teleplucker has the right idea in my opinion.
I did just this on my HG, and had Dieter at K&K wire up the
output jack in stereo. I run that through a DTAR Solstice.
I have EQ and volume options for each channel. Output can
be either mono, or stereo.
I haven't had any crosstalk or bleed issues. I would recommend
using a high quality TRS cable.

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Old 02-02-2022, 06:24 PM
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I have run sound for Stephen Bennett and Andy Walburg many times at The Harp Guitar Gathering. Neither of those guys uses a dual pickup system. Muriel Anderson has a dual source system and requests a mic for her super treble strings. Those are the premier players in the harp guitar world and that's what they use for live sound.
For recording I know Stephen Bennett does not use internal pickups, only a mic. Take all that FWIW.
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Old 02-03-2022, 02:23 PM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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Good info , and we can see the solutions run from zero, one, two or three pickups. Don't think anyone uses four.

I'm taking lessons from Muriel Anderson so I may ask her what her opinion is of pickups are for harp guitars.
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Old 03-06-2022, 09:58 AM
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I'm taking lessons from Muriel Anderson so I may ask her what her opinion is of pickups are for harp guitars.
Wow, that is awesome. I'm such a big fan of her playing. She is a very talented guitarist!
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Old 03-07-2022, 11:44 AM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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Yes, I feel that I'm am blessed to be able to take lessons from her. She's a nice of a person as a great guitar instructor.

She did respond to one of my videos I sent to her, and she said it took a minute to figure out what I was playing. But then she gave me some good advice on how to improve.
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:41 PM
1after909 1after909 is offline
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Are you taking lessons with her via the internet? I usually check in with her on her Monday live feed via YouTube..
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Old 03-14-2022, 10:13 AM
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Are you taking lessons with her via the internet? I usually check in with her on her Monday live feed via YouTube..
I had one live one on one lesson via internet for $100. To save costs, I signed up for the Truefire private lessons where it's $99 a month where you exchange unlimited videos and text messages. It's still private, but not as convenient. I spent about an hour yesterday trying to get a decent recording of the first song she taught me. I get nervous trying to record a video.

She said the problem with this method she has found, is most people won't dedicate practice time unless they have a schedule lesson coming up. You need to be dedicated and practice on a regular basis which I do.

That said, I really like the one month I have spent doing this with her.
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Old 11-01-2022, 10:16 AM
Gregg Miner Gregg Miner is offline
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Hey all, just back from the 20th Harp Guitar Gathering, which was more fun than ever.
Before I begin: At the end of HGG19, we had a long discussion about Forums and the harp guitar. As you know, I shut down my Harpguitars.net forum some years ago. We all agreed FB sucks, half aren't on it, and (with the help of moderator Randall "Teleplucker" Sprinkle), agreed that this AGF HG section right here is not just the best, but the ONLY option going forward. To that end, my very first blog was this: https://www.harpguitars.net/2021/11/...guitar-forums/
1 year later, the very first slide of my annual presentation on HG activity was that blog, and I asked for a show of hands from 50+ harp guitar FANATICS - how many use this Forum (Randall, you weren't in the room). TWO raised their hands (besides myself, and I don't frequent here, as I've got my own blog content and FB to worry about). My conclusion was that the true forum for that dedicated group was the HGG ITSELF, where discussion went on among us all weekend. Of course, that can only happen once a year. This is just an FYI.
AH, pickups! I myself am an acoustic-only player, and after 20 years of listening to players of every stripe plug in at our professional concerts, I still barely tolerate hearing the instrument plugged in. I am constantly thinking how great this composition or performance might be, but I can't tell because it sounds like muddy crap (and this from some of the best players). So, here I'll reveal that which won't be hurtful, but informative, and close with an eye-opening potential mindblower.
First up was a pre-Gathering concert at a large ex-church venue. Matt Thomas and Travis Bowman opened. These guys are two of the absolutely top virtuoso pros who have obviously spent lots of time and money on figuring out their rigs. BUT they were at the mercy of the "sound man" - a term I've come to realize usually means "some amateur musician who dearly loves BASS and prefers it REALLY LOUD." These guys are two of the best sub-bass muters out there, but you wouldn't know it. The intricacy of their seriously mind-blowing compositions and arrangements was often lost amidst the echoing space and high volume.
Now the Gathering, where their same rigs went through RANDALL'S system in two different large rooms. NOW these guys sounded fantastic. I knew this already, but: Randall spends a **** ton on his sound and that's what these instruments need. He also runs sound live from his iPad out in the audience real time, which helps tremendously. Still, 90% of the players sounded - not overly muddy - but way too mid-range-y. The volume was decent for the entire audience, and never overwhelming. To my ear, Matt and Travis were possibly the loudest, but by far the cleanest sounding players of the group, with fantastic separation between strings/notes, stunning linearity from the lowest sub to the highest neck notes and everything in between. It DID sound significantly "hyped" and not purely acoustic, but then that is what McKee and Dufour et al sound like on CD, as they blend their studio mics and plug ins. So "real" and "acoustic" but super-enhanced. This, they told me, was so that they could play stadiums (and have) and small little venues. They each have different pickup systems and outboard gear and I HIGHLY SUGGEST you give them a call and see if they'll share (they did freely with me).
We've sold some 400+ Timberlines now, and between that and hearing from other players of Dyers or Tonedevils, the simple doubled set up of K&K Minis (2 sets of 3 - don't bother with the bass variant) is BY FAR the simplest, workable, affordable system for pros and amateurs alike.
And yet, Randall and his system were about as good as you can get. So. why so much mid-range unpleasantness this last weekend?
More critical work and listening needs to be done.
I go down Sunday morning and my dear friend and spectacular player Kinloch Nelson was playing his Jim Worland-built Dyer through a Super Reverb at moderate volume. IT HAD THE MOST NATURAL ACOUSTIC SOUND i HAVE YET HEARD. HOW? He said he wasn't playing through a pickup. He had strapped to the instrument's low treble bout the Brunner "Muriel Super-Treble" unit, which has its own underneath pickups. The neck and subs were being amplified ambiently BY THAT. Of course, strumming those, they were 10 times louder than the guitar, so couldn't be utilized together, but we all instantly thought...is this a hint that pickups under the bridge may not be the best spot for these **** things? That they were instead near the edge (possibly near/over a low brace, I have no idea), which vibrates in a totally different way, and gives (this particular) instrument a fully dynamic natural sound from low to high?
I KNOW that mad-scientist Kinloch (check out my blogs on his HG conversions!) will be doing some experiments.... who else?
Well, I hope this little post covers me for a few months while I go off and play...
Regards, Sir Gregory
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